Low of 20F last night, why didn't CVR make snow?  Its the one of the busiest weekends of the season and with the rain and quick freeze, the conditions can't be great.  Wisp and even Whitetail made snow last night.  Has CVR called it quits on the season in mid-February?

 

Not sure about CVR, but when I asked SS on twitter this morning why they were not making snow this morning they said that wet bulb wouldn't come down quite enough. Maybe CVR had the same issue?

I would think they are done with snow making especially with the forecast for the week ahead.   Timberline is closing midweek and reopening on Friday.    I remember not too long again you could count on great skiing well into March at both resorts in Canaan Valley (even remeber in the late 90s going there as late as March 31st with all terrain open), but the last few years they have only had about half the terrain open from mid-February on.     You may be a good snow here and there in late Feb/early March there providing good conditions for a few days, but it's a real crap shoot if you plan to do a multi-day trip there anytime after mid-February it seems.

At a 100% humidity and 20 degrees you can make snow of good quality...but you cant make snow when there are a pile of snow guns that are sitting in the parking lot....

CVR may have blown just a bit of new snow Fri night in some spots to lessen the freeze impact. Not certain.

14 day forecast is dire; one night of snowmaking won’t make a difference in how long they can stay open.

"but it’s a real crap shoot if you plan to do a multi-day trip there anytime after mid-February it seems."......... Its a crap shoot anytime of the winter in the MidAtlantic..specially south of the Mason Dixon...doesnt mean you give up in mid Feb...there could be a 2 foot dump in a week or 2...you are either committed to deliver a product or not..SS was warmer than Canaan and Im sure would have blown if they could..they are in a different league...they have to be to survive since they are a private buis...

Hopefully It wont be 2 weeks till cooler wx arrives JL...maybe as soon as the 26th/27th..early march is showing much colder on the longer range GFS but maybe Hillary is right..."But what does it matter at this point??!!"

JohnL wrote:

CVR may have blown just a bit of new snow Fri night in some spots to lessen the freeze impact. Not certain.

14 day forecast is dire; one night of snowmaking won’t make a difference in how long they can stay open.

2 nites of snowmaking not 1...its still 22.6 at the top of the Mtn at 9am this morn...could have made a couple of nice mounds to be groomed out later....they got a little over 4 inches of nat so the skiing has been decent for the prez weekenders..(was hoping for 8! )...I was happy for my renters who kicked me out of my house up there......oh..BTW..I did see snowmaking at TL....

fishnski wrote:

At a 100% humidity and 20 degrees you can make snow of good quality...but you cant make snow when there are a pile of snow guns that are sitting in the parking lot....

Fish,

The brand new fan guns have been sitting in the parking lot all winter.  They used them for a short period of time on the B slope, otherwise they've been sitting idle.  I hear they need a longer extension cord.  The people from US Hotels & Resorts need to listen to their emplyees who know something about skiing in WV.

 

fishnski wrote:

Hopefully It wont be 2 weeks till cooler wx arrives JL...maybe as soon as the 26th/27th..early march is showing much colder on the longer range GFS but maybe Hillary is right..."But what does it matter at this point??!!"

Were you down this weekend? Some nice skiing yesterday PM and today. I had me some fun.

March doesn’t matter to me except St Patty’s weekend. Travel season. Utah, VT, Utah. If you only skied and didn’t fish... I’ve given up on March in these parts.

I got kicked out by a presidents weekend rental JL...was up there for almost 3 weeks..skied only cheap days at Canaan didn't even make it to TL...Snowshoed..Xcountry..Dog Walking thru the wilderness ....frozen clogged up septic that backed up into my basement took alot of my time and energy and !$$$$$$!!!...great conditions at Canaan all 5 days I skied.. (I know..lame..) kinda crazy on the half of Gravity that was left ungroomed...im getting soft...to much down time at the beach!

https://www.pugski.com/threads/mid-a-conditions-resorts-meetups-and-stoke-17-18.6730/page-17#post-212814

See last pic for coverage at the top of the lift - got worse a few hours later.

Enjoyed skiing at Canaan Valley Resort with JohnL on Saturday.  Drove through 4-6" new snow up to Laurel Mountain area on Saturday evening.  Very slick driving on 219 in Deep Creek Lake area.  Fun day with Laurel Hill Crazie and friends on fresh snow at Laurel Mtn on Sunday, but limited terrain.  Persevered through rain Monday morning at Seven Springs for some fun, dryer PM skiing on soft snow.  Virtually no lift lines at all places due to timing and weather.  Will try to post a report with photos later.

JohnL wrote:

fishnski wrote:

Hopefully It wont be 2 weeks till cooler wx arrives JL...maybe as soon as the 26th/27th..early march is showing much colder on the longer range GFS but maybe Hillary is right..."But what does it matter at this point??!!"

Were you down this weekend? Some nice skiing yesterday PM and today. I had me some fun.

March doesn’t matter to me except St Patty’s weekend. Travel season. Utah, VT, Utah. If you only skied and didn’t fish... I’ve given up on March in these parts.

and there it is. There used to be lift served skiing in Canaan Valley through the first Sunday in April. It is now three weekends into February and we are talking about the season in Canaan Valley being over? Three years ago I would have never planned to do a western trip before the season ended in CV. The expectations have been lowered to the point that they may as well close after Presidents Day. 

This weather doesn't help much either 

That is so sad to see and hear.

jimmy wrote:

JohnL wrote:

fishnski wrote:

Hopefully It wont be 2 weeks till cooler wx arrives JL...maybe as soon as the 26th/27th..early march is showing much colder on the longer range GFS but maybe Hillary is right..."But what does it matter at this point??!!"

Were you down this weekend? Some nice skiing yesterday PM and today. I had me some fun.

March doesn’t matter to me except St Patty’s weekend. Travel season. Utah, VT, Utah. If you only skied and didn’t fish... I’ve given up on March in these parts.

and there it is. There used to be lift served skiing in Canaan Valley through the first Sunday in April. It is now three weekends into February and we are talking about the season in Canaan Valley being over? Three years ago I would have never planned to do a western trip before the season ended in CV. The expectations have been lowered to the point that they may as well close after Presidents Day. 

This weather doesn't help much either 

So what exactly changed in the Valley?  I remember skiing after St Patricks day too.  I also seem to remember getting first tracks after Thanksgiving.  Canaan seems to keep to their closing day which is established at the beginining of the season.  And Timberline closes in mid march to save snow for the snowmobile races.  Before the snowmobile races 4 or so years ago I remember them pushing through the last weekend in March.  

All jokes aside I don't ski in the Valley any more because the ridiculous pass is not only cheaper, it also gives me skiing a month earlier and two weeks later.   Based on the webcam spot checks I do, I'm not the only one that feels this way.  I never seen anyone at either Valley resort.

Two weeks of rain and 60 degree weather explains a lot this year. 

TomH wrote:

Two weeks of rain and 60 degree weather explains a lot this year. 

All due respect, it's the same weather pattern at SS, 7S, Wisp and HV which are "mostly' open.  

What's nuts is they made it easier to get to the Valley with Cor H. 

SAD waste of taxpayer dollars - open roads to closed places.  

 

It was only 4 years ago that I was skiing powder in late March at TL - I looked up a post here from March 30, 2014. Based on their website it seems that CVR is still doing ok with the snowmaking trails, problem is the number of natural-snow only trails. Hopefully these new guns I keep hearing about will help.

I think it has been well known that the snowmaking capability in the Valley hasn't been on the level of the places mentioned above for many years.  This could be old infrastructure, water issues ect. ect.  However, in the past they always have been bailed out by having some of the best natural snow in the region.  When that doesn't happen like the last few seasons they struggle.  I'm certainly not defending closing early if they have snow or their lagging behind in snowmaking capabilities.  I just don't think anything has really changed in the last 5 years or so (which of course is part of the problem) besides bad snow years. 

It's sad looking at the web cams at various places (esp Canaan Valley) today as the trails are getting thinner and most places are so empty.  Ironically Timberline actually shows some people on their web cam in what appears to be a group lesson right now of some sort near the base when it says they are closed today.    Thankfully we had enough cold spells early this Winter that most places were able to make plenty of snow to open fully and stay open up until now, though trail counts will drop quickly this week I am sure at local places.   In terms of the Valley I am sure they will have some snowy periods in March, but unfortunately will probably be too late to save anything for this ski season.    It's such a shame too what has happened to Timberline over the years as we have made so many trips there staying in any number of the wonderful homes for rent along and near the slopes.    It has been nice to see how CVR has mostly tried to improve in a number of areas (though snowmaking still lacks), but Timberline just keeps going in the wrong direction.

I guess that is why we fly fish so much more in the winter months these days ehh bonefish.  I just gave up beating my head against that wall long ago and changed my buying behavior.   Of course the people that are suffering most are the business owners and homeowners that are stuck and the people in the Valley that care about the place.  I wish it was different.  I spend alot less in the Valley than I used to or would like to.  So yes I agree with you guys.  Except to the extent that yes a 200 inch snowfall this winter would have made many of us forget a bunch of stuff.

TomH wrote:

I guess that is why we fly fish so much more in the winter months these days ehh bonefish.  I just gave up beating my head against that wall long ago and changed my buying behavior.   Of course the people that are suffering most are the business owners and homeowners that are stuck and the people in the Valley that care about the place.  I wish it was different.  I spend alot less in the Valley than I used to or would like to.  So yes I agree with you guys.  Except to the extent that yes a 200 inch snowfall this winter would have made many of us forget a bunch of stuff.

Yeh..Highlight your last sentence TH....I have said over and over again they are Snow spoiled in the Valley and that is why everytime they announce that they are increasing Snowmaking I get a litlte nasty like i did early this season and question if they will actually use that increased snowmaking since every year  Ive been going up there since the early 1990's its the samo samo...they get the few standard slopes open and I will add that it doesnt seem to take them any less time to do so now vs 1995 even though they have invested in all this Snowmaking equip...then Canaan just waits for the natural to get them 100% open and timberline just adds as little as they have to to their closed slopes in hopes that the natural will come and take over...

it seems to get easier and easier for them to just slow down and give up thinking that the increased effort and costs dont justify the traffic and revenue they will get out of it...thats a lame weak mentality....rumors and Groupthink will outlast any correction in facts and since they dont correct the facts by putting out huge mounds of snow to get thru the bad times which will come..they come almost every year....the "groupthink" will just get worse and then the buis just dies.....you Hustle..get the word out..you brag you take pride in getting a product thru these worse of periods and you will be rewarded when this weather turns like it is showing for early march...the "group" will remember Canaan as the place to go to when the lowland slopes are closed and too sloppy..Corridor H is there and should not be taken for granted because the Mountains of Canaan will be producing and will be winter wonderland again...Dont make Canaan Lonely in March....MCGA!
 

Not looking any better down here. Local news was warning people snow up high is melting fast..  Rain forecast Saturday and Sunday too.  I'll look at March 3rd or 4th and see if anyone still has a trail open and go if they do.  Pretty sure we're done after that, maybe before regardless of any future snow making temps before they plant the golf flags.

Still too far out to know for sure, but maybe just maybe things will be trending colder middle of next week...fish posted something about that recently and this is starting to show up on the 10 day forecasts on the standard weather sites. So maybe some good news for the resorts that can make it until then. I sure hope so, I have a new kayak I am looking forward to using but I am not ready to do so quite yet!

TomH wrote:

Two weeks of rain and 60 degree weather explains a lot this year. 

Then three weeks of cold..

 

Then

TomH wrote:

Two weeks of rain and 60 degree weather explains a lot this year. 

Rinse and repeat ad nasseum :-(  Just like last season and the season before that..

 

And, yes while we can get a two foot dump (realistically more like 14") late February and/or March, it's almost heavy wet stuff before it even stops falling and definitely elehpant snot by noon the following day.

Have to agree with everything you said fishnski (and you too crgildart).  My hopes are pathetically low - I just hope they push out another one of those whales next to the big patches on OTW so I can ski lift served bumps one more weekend. Scrounge around for a few weeks and then head west.

TomH wrote:

Have to agree with everything you said fishnski (and you too.  My hopes are pathetically low - I just hope they push out another one of those whales next to the big patches on OTW so I can ski lift served bumps one more weekend.

Aren't they saving those for the snowmobilers??

All in all I am satisfied.  I even enjoyed skiing in the driving rain ALL DAY and almost til last chair one Saturday with a group of scouts and good friend adults.  I've learned to lower my expectations around these parts.  Yes, I complain about the inconsistant skiing.. But, it certainly blows away NOT skiing..

Yes I too have enjoyed skiing in the rain this year - snow is good!  This Friday was a bit tough though.

 

 

And, yes while we can get a two foot dump (realistically more like 14") late February and/or March, it's almost heavy wet stuff before it even stops falling and definitely elehpant snot by noon the following day.

You must be talking about the Southern Alpps...not the Crown Jewell of the WV Alpps....last March Canaan had 31 inches of snow...average high of 42 and low of 22...mean temp of 32...Nego Smurf with the Fake News again!...

Fake fish.

I have come to think that snow totals are misleading in the Mid Atlantic, or at least, not the whole story.  I think snow totals plus the amount of thaws is what tells the story.  This little graph from the Fearless Canaan Weatherman of number of days in a winter with a specific amount of snow on the ground gives you a better idea of what was happening (sorry the columns don't align).  For example only 4 days last year with 12 inches on the ground while in 14-15 there were 35 days.  That was a great tree skiing year:

Table 7. Number of days each winter season
with a given amount or more of snow on the ground (inches)

148		1 in.	4 in.	8 in.	12 in.	16 in.	20 in.	24 in.	30 in.	36 in.	42 in.
149	Season
150	2016--17	64	41	11	4	0	0	0	0	0	0
151	2015--16	73	41	21	15	5	4	3	0	0	0
152	2014--15	110	74	50	35	15	10	0	0	0	0
153	2013--14	116	80	32	12	7	1	0	0	0	0
154	2012--13	138	116	93	61	20	7	0	0	0	0
155	2011--12	83	30	9	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
156	2010--11	114	93	69	53	12	0	0	0	0	0
157	2009--10	119	91	66	47	42	29	15	2	0	0
158	2008--09	97	70	46	13	0	0	0	0	0	0
159	2007--08	83	44	22	3	0	0	0	0	0	0
160	2006--07	98	74	58	45	24	5	0	0	0	0
161	2005--06	109	75	25	3	0	0	0	0	0	0
162	2004--05	91	70	44	16	3	0	0	0	0	0
163	2003--04	109	88	57	24	1	0	0	0	0	0
164	2002--03	131	119	97	73	50	34	16	5	3	0
165	2001--02	61	38	13	3	0	0	0	0	0	0
166	2001-2015 Mean	102	74	47	27	12	6	2	0	0	0

 

TomH wrote:

 My hopes are pathetically low - I just hope they push out another one of those whales next to the big patches on OTW so I can ski lift served bumps one more weekend. 

Stockholm syndrome. It's pathetic how happy I was yesterday to find a run with 12 turns of bumps.

Laurel Hill Crazie wrote:

Fake fish.

JERK...thats what I get when I use a fake fish to catch a real one...

fishnski wrote:

 

 

And, yes while we can get a two foot dump (realistically more like 14") late February and/or March, it's almost heavy wet stuff before it even stops falling and definitely elehpant snot by noon the following day.

You must be talking about the Southern Alpps...not the Crown Jewell of the WV Alpps....last March Canaan had 31 inches of snow...average high of 42 and low of 22...mean temp of 32...Nego Smurf with the Fake News again!...

Almost Heaven!! MPC!!!       It was 80 degrees here in NCWV today (seriously got quite the sun burn) but I bet the snow ontop of MPC didn't even soften up today!!! Oh what could've been...

crgildart wrote:

All in all I am satisfied.  I even enjoyed skiing in the driving rain ALL DAY and almost til last chair one Saturday with a group of scouts and good friend adults.  I've learned to lower my expectations around these parts.  Yes, I complain about the inconsistant skiing.. But, it certainly blows away NOT skiing..

Troop 451 ?   that sounds very deja vu....

David wrote:

Almost Heaven!! MPC!!!       It was 80 degrees here in NCWV today (seriously got quite the sun burn) but I bet the snow ontop of MPC didn't even soften up today!!! Oh what could've been...

whats wrong with you Davey boy?....sunburn got you miserable?.....ill play....yeh...record heat today..probably about 62 on top of MPC..add some spruce shade and the snow survives.
...saw Elkins hit 77 today..old record was 73 so it smoked it....add the rain on the way and having it come on the weekend does put a doom n Gloom on everybody...Tough extreme pattern....we saw flakes fall in LA and record cold out west.......

bonefish wrote:

I disagree. I think Timberline has completely crumbled in the last five years with the changing of management and the resulting mass exodus of staff. 

When timberline announced at the last minute over the weekend that they were closing for the week they recieved a lot of angry feedback from folks who had booked already. They deleted all of the comments on facebook. A friend sent me a screenshot of one of the comments before they deleted it. This pretty much sums up why they are in the position they are in with their dwindiling customer base even with the new highway practically dumping customers at their doorstep.-----

"So I’ve been coming to Timberline to ski every year since 2000 for our family ski vacation”¦and things continue to go downhill(no pun intended) every year. Now I find out they will be closing this week while we are there---reopening on Friday the 23rd  due to poor “conditions”? In mid February?? That’s pretty lame. Just checked Wintergreen (24 out of 25 runs open!!), Massunutten, Canaan Valley, Wisp, Winterplace, Snowshoe-guess What? They are all open for business this coming week! Timberline please do us all a favor and sell what is left of your ski resort to a company  who really is dedicated to the sport of skiing. This will be our last winter visiting Timberline”¦.so sad."

They've gotten so desperate that they take money paid to them for utilities and use it for other things, aka not for paying utility companies. (This is not #fakenews, this actually happened...more than once, it's public record at this point).  

And like someone else said above, it's really sad because of how this effects the lives of so many good people in Tucker County. They deserve much better. Lets face it, the owners cut their losses each season and go back to their homes and leave the place to sit empty until the next season comes around then they spin in circles lost for a few months. It's no surprise to people who are regulars that things continue to go downhill each year. 

pagamony wrote:

crgildart wrote:

All in all I am satisfied.  I even enjoyed skiing in the driving rain ALL DAY and almost til last chair one Saturday with a group of scouts and good friend adults.  I've learned to lower my expectations around these parts.  Yes, I complain about the inconsistant skiing.. But, it certainly blows away NOT skiing..

Troop 451 ?   that sounds very deja vu....

461

 

And an average temp of 32 usually means mushy wet snow by noon most days fish..

 

I was looking at the snowfall totals the past couple years and seeing a definite decline.  Then I started to wonder some.  Imagine of all this rain was snow... those would be EPIC snowfall totals.. Instead, it's EPIC base killer precipitation..

I think Whitetail is just about done for the season.   Snowpark looks as it is on its last day or two, most of the intermediate top to bottom runs have closed with the exception of Fallmount.   Although temps will cool somewhat the next few days there is going to be lots of rain so don't see them last beyond this weekend (if that long).   Canaan Valley looks look a ghost town right now, but could probably cobble together enough snow to stay open through next weekend.   Liberty amazingly looks to be holding up better than most places.   There are even a handful of people there.   If the weather doesn't do the local (and beyond) places in then the skier visits won't justify staying open.   I know last year was a very, very warm Feb, but forget exactly how early some of the places closed.   I think I remember Wintergreen and Whitetail not making it until March 1st, but could be wrong.

Wintergreen made it to at least March 12th last year, because I skied it that day. Not sure how long they stayed open beyond that, but I'm pretty sure it was less than a week.

Wintergreen is frequently one of the last, but not the last, to close in the region. I've skied there a lot in March, in deep corn or hot slush.  Right now they have 18 slopes open, the webacm shows good coverage on eagle swoop, but the tubing is toast. Near term weather forecast is brutal

The problems at Timberline can easily be explained by looking at website.  First thing you see in large bold letters is “WE ARE OPEN”.  You jump in car and head for the Valley.  Oops, TL is closed midweek;  you failed to notice the smaller letters below the larger “OPEN” statement that indicates TL is closed!

A really non-classy sloppy way to manage a ski area.

The Colonel

To be fair to TL and CV, the recent weather will be completely devastating for ALL mid-Atlantic resorts.  Weather prognosticators from legitimate organizations had predicted a "colder-than-normal" February.  Actually, the  weather couldn't have been more opposite than predicted, and the tropical bands of heavy rain (more appropriate for the gulf) have been a real anomaly - yet no weather expert has even commented. 

Laurel Mountain just announced, they are done for their 2017-2018 season.

msprings wrote:

Laurel Mountain just announced, they are done for their 2017-2018 season.

Bummer - I believe there will be more to follow, very soon.  What a shame, 

Sadly, the ONE thing these businesses count on is the ONE thing that can't be counted on ...... the weather.

Blue Don 1982 wrote:

msprings wrote:

Laurel Mountain just announced, they are done for their 2017-2018 season.

Bummer - I believe there will be more to follow, very soon.  What a shame, 

Sadly, the ONE thing these businesses count on is the ONE thing that can't be counted on ...... the weather.

You can somewhat control your own destiny with aggressive snowmaking and adequate water supply. There were plenty of extended snow making periods in the first half of this winter.

Thank you CVR for posting at 5 pm your opening status for Saturday.

Somebody will make snow monday night but winter returns march 2nd..a little snow with that and watching a storm for the 6th but thats a long way off...one way or another I think there will be some snow action and snow making temps coming...day late Dollar short?

Day trip to SS on 3/4 with my son if the weather cooperates, then the following weekend with the whole family. Fingers crossed!

28 degrees at 4200 feet WV at 830 pm...SS blowing at the top...seems dark at Wisp and 7springs as well as Canaan for now...

I had 20 degrees in the valley this morning. Whatever would have been made last night would probably be washed away by Friday. Don't think either local resort has the resources to throw around like snowshoe does. Pattern change is coming though I think! I am sure the resorts wont bother since it's so late in the season, but White Grass should have their time again hopefully. 

best ski days I've had here were in late march 2013!! 

 

fishnski wrote:

28 degrees at 4200 feet WV at 830 pm...SS blowing at the top...seems dark at Wisp and 7springs as well as Canaan for now...

 

On strike and no where to go...that is what sucks the most!

With the recent unseasonable weather, we are suspending ski area operations at Canaan Valley Resort Ski Area until Friday, March 2, when we will reopen the area for weekend skiing. The forecast is calling for up to 5 inches of fresh snow Friday and Saturday. We’ll be offering big discounts at the ski area - $25 for a lift ticket, $35 for a lift ticket and ski rental, or $45 for a lift ticket and snowboard rental. We’ll have at least six trails open, including Timber Trail from top to bottom and the beginner’s ski area. Although we closed the terrain park and tube park for the season, there are plenty of other things to do this week at Canaan Valley Resort including ice skating, golf course (weather permitting), clay trap shooting (advanced appointments required), resort board tours, and indoor swimming pool. Stay tuned for updates. Think cold thoughts, everyone.

Never thought I would see the day when Liberty and Whitetail each have more trails open than Canaan Valley and Timberline combined in March!!!   That is with a good bit of natural snowt that fell in the Valley and much colder temperatures this week where they could have made snow.    Canaan only has five beginner trails open (and really it's four since they are calling Timber Trail two trails) while Timberline has 5 as well.   Both Liberty and Whitetail are still making snow right now at 8 AM on March 3rd!   You have to give both of those local resorts kudos for doing all they can to remain open and provide the best conditions possible.  

Next falls headline news..."we have increased our Snow making capability.".....but have no ability or desire....not worth the low skier volume....here is a formula....product=Skier volume....Build it and they will come!....TL blowing snow...(whats Joe Manchins Ph Number?)

mdr227 wrote:

Both Liberty and Whitetail are still making snow right now at 8 AM on March 3rd!   You have to give both of those local resorts kudos for doing all they can to remain open and provide the best conditions possible.  

I keep track of my pass usage and base my next year’s purchases off of how much use they got. The snowmaking effort and these resorts remaining open during the week for the next week or 2 will likely be enough to get me to renew my unlimited pass for another year. Although it may not look that way at first glance I wouldn’t be surprised if whitetail has had more skiable acres open than 7 springs most of the season. 

Speaking of staying open, I've always been quick to criticize 7 Srings and Nutting, but cudos to them for staying open with the horrible weather lately, and blowing snow again with the colder weather returning. 

 

Sad they didn't do the same for Laurel Mountain, but I understand that Laurel doesn't have the business to justify it.

What is truly amazing to me thsi morning is that on March 4th every open ski resort in the mid-atlantic area is making snow with the exception it appears of Canaan Valley.    How many of these resorts in the past would have made snow this late into the season?   It looks like all will remain open through at least next weekend which two weeks ago looked impossible for many.   Even Bryce is making snow!!!!!   They have as many trails open (5) as Canaan and Timberline.     We've had some mid to late February multi-day trips to the Valley to ski, but going forward am not going to play anything there in advance beyond mid-Feb and only go if Mother Nature provides them with great conditions because after this Winter have zero confidence in their commitment to providing the best product possible beyond the bare minimum needed to open trails for marketing purposes earlier in the season.

Naturaly..they are spoiled...inch here..3 there.another dusting here n there....then watch for a storm on late the 11th/12th..been on some Model radars (german, canadian,Us) for a few days...be nice if we could end this winter on a good note!

msprings wrote:

Sad they didn't do the same for Laurel Mountain, but I understand that Laurel doesn't have the business to justify it.

No beds to rent just passes, lessons, food & bev, and basic retail shop. Come visit more often next season and bring some friends for a day. We are going to have a few more state park vounteer days this off season and do a little work on Dream Highway.

fishnski wrote:

Naturaly..they are spoiled...inch here..6 there...3 three more....another dusting here n there....then watch for a storm on late the 11th/12th..been on some Model radars  for a few days...be nice if we could end this winter on a good note!

welcome to Canaan Valley...where you wil be spoiled by nature and our slopes covered naturally!...we are a gun free zone...

WTF is right!..doesnt make sense..Canaan has the potential of 2 feet of snow in the next 10 days or so..something must not be right over there.....gonna look stupid closed with it caked in Snow!...

Makes no sense at all.   I can't ever remember a time that Canaan Valley has closed this early.   Yes, it was warm during February, but March has provided continued snow making weather along with natural snow for the valley and we certainly are heading into a cold and snowy period coming up for the Valley.    Even a resort like Massanutten that closed decided to re-open and make snow.   Luckily looks like we have at least another good week of skiing at local resorts as they continue to make snow and do all they can to provide customers (esp pass holders) a good product.  

Could we perhaps crowdsource here a list of resorts in this region who have been doing meaningful snowmaking since Friday?  By meaningful, I mean trying to offer their customers significant additional terrain, not just patching bare spots on a tiny number of remaining open trails.  So, for example, I would not count Timberline (haven't seen evidence they are making snow above midmountain) but I would count Wintergreen which made snow to reopen Upper Wild Turkey from the top.

My list so far is:

Wintergreen

Bryce

Snowshoe (?)

Sugar Mountain

Appalachian

I don't know the PA resorts well but I am sure some/many of them are doing real snowmaking.

 

 

I feel sorry for anyone that owns a home in the Valley.  It must be infuriating to deal with the people running these resorts.

You may want to remove that (?) on Snowshoe from your list.   They have been making snow all over the mountain all weekend long.  Word from top brass is they have every intention of staying open to April 1st.

You'll see them blowing snow every night

http://go2snowshoe.com/cams/

 

Norsk wrote:

Could we perhaps crowdsource here a list of resorts in this region who have been doing meaningful snowmaking since Friday?  By meaningful, I mean trying to offer their customers significant additional terrain, not just patching bare spots on a tiny number of remaining open trails. 

..........

I don't know the PA resorts well but I am sure some/many of them are doing real snowmaking.

No one is going to focus on re-laying "base" snow to re-open bare trails at this juncture. That's a multi-step process and the dollars and effort are otherwise best used on maintaining the "open" trails. Kudos are simply warranted to any which are keeping those alive - in some cases, alive, as they had a rather sufficient base remaining from earlier this winter. To that end, both Liberty and Whitetail ran their snowmaking each night this past weekend, even overnight into a Monday morning. Hooray the Lowlands! ;-)

Norsk wrote:

Could we perhaps crowdsource here a list of resorts in this region who have been doing meaningful snowmaking since Friday?  By meaningful, I mean trying to offer their customers significant additional terrain, not just patching bare spots on a tiny number of remaining open trails.  So, for example, I would not count Timberline (haven't seen evidence they are making snow above midmountain) but I would count Wintergreen which made snow to reopen Upper Wild Turkey from the top.

My list so far is:

Wintergreen

Bryce

Snowshoe (?)

Sugar Mountain

Appalachian

I don't know the PA resorts well but I am sure some/many of them are doing real snowmaking.

 

 

Massanutten started snowmaking as soon as temps were cold enough on Friday.  Turned off the guns on Sunday morning when they opened.  As of 10am Monday morning, the guns were staying on since there are very few mid-week late season folks who aren't staff or season pass holders.  To be clear, Massanutten wrote "Suspended operations" on their website as opposed to announcing that they were closed.

Whitetail and Liberty must have been doing some snowmaking to keep things nice based on what I've read.

FreshPow wrote:

No one is going to focus on re-laying "base" snow to re-open bare trails at this juncture. That's a multi-step process and the dollars and effort are otherwise best used on maintaining the "open" trails. Kudos are simply warranted to any which are keeping those alive - in some cases, alive, as they had a rather sufficient base remaining from earlier this winter. To that end, both Liberty and Whitetail ran their snowmaking each night this past weekend, even overnight into a Monday morning. Hooray the Lowlands! ;-)

Guess you didn't look at the Massanutten webcams before snowmaking started up again.  Pretty much no snow on the long green at the base.  But that resort is a special case, partially because it's a major timeshare resort.  Also a lot closer to major metropolitan markets than WV.  For many people, the slopes at Massanutten are an amenity not that much different than the indoor/outdoor water park or the seasonal ice skating rink.  What they decided was that redoing the snowtubing lanes wasn't worth the effort.  Being open next weekend means they can host the rescheduled Scouts Day and have the Heroes On the Hill for military familes as planned.  That's good for locals, as well as people who plan far in advance for a fun late season weekend.

I'm not talking about re-laying base on slopes which are down to the grass now. I am talking about re-opening meaningful closed terrain which requires rebuilding or supplementing base, widening, etc.  Sugar in NC was down to lower mountain terrain only last week, and have now reopened two routes from the top.  Wintergreen re-opened Upper Wild Turkey.   I am pretty sure Bryce has re-opened at least one meaningful slope also.  To me this is a lot different and more customer centric than simply keeping a few lower mountain beginner runs open (eg Timberline).  

Wow, you all are harsh.  Canaan Valley Resort invested a ton in snowmaking early this season and had 22 runs open by December 29.  Through most of the season DCSki readers were raving about conditions there.

Every resort knows their business dynamics and profit points and there just aren't enough skiers in March for every ski area in this region to make an all-out effort to stay open.  Seriously -- talk to folks in the industry.  They have learned the hard way that once the temperature hits the 70s sometime in February or early March, the majority of their customers won't revisit that season even if Mother Nature dumped 5 feet of snow.  It's a harsh reality, but it's the reality.  There aren't enough skiers to go around once March rolls along.  So some resorts with deeper pockets or very large corporate owners bet that they can capture the few remaining skiers by keeping their expensive infrastructure going, while others make the sound business decision of folding.

I get it -- as a season passholder at a Mid-Atlantic resort, I want to get every possible ski day for my dollar that I can.  But when employees outnumber skiers on the slopes, I understand why it's not good business for resorts to stay open just because they can.

Scott wrote:

 There aren't enough skiers to go around once March rolls along.  So some resorts with deeper pockets or very large corporate owners bet that they can capture the few remaining skiers by keeping their expensive infrastructure going, while others make the sound business decision of folding.

I get it -- as a season passholder at a Mid-Atlantic resort, I want to get every possible ski day for my dollar that I can.  But when employees outnumber skiers on the slopes, I understand why it's not good business for resorts to stay open just because they can.

Judging by the crowds this past Saturday there were more than just a "few remaining skiers" from the Mid-A.  I skied or rode the lift with people from FL, SC, GA, NC, PA, TN, DC & OH.  It was equivalent to MLK and Pres weekend.

Thats the biggest load of lame BS..such a loser mentality..enabling a Ski are to lay down in mid Feb with your "Understanding" is so disturbing to many of us that have supported the Valley forever...Ill bet that the workers get paid either way..wouldnt take that much mulla to patch up an area that just recieved a half foot of snow with potentially a whole lot more to go...Disgusting for all the buisinesses and homeowners in the  Valley that need the work and pay their taxes to be held hostage by a west virginia run ski resort!...and the other lame one...we should call the State Govt and demand better and if they cant maintain a good product then get out of the buis and let a cew like SS run it...
You dont lay down like this...you make a commitment to stay open at least 3 months a year...thru thick and thin!!...I pay my snow plow dude the same during big snows and no snows..its a CONTRACT.......Add all the hype a year ago...go back and read all the posts about the amazing snow making that they have now..on and on...this is an area that gets 160 inches of snow a year to boot!!..when you have a consistent record you will be rewarded..
Your attitude is just another nail in the Coffin for the Valley that with the new super Hiway coming from the dc area right into the valley should be Booming..

 

Judging by the crowds this past Saturday there were more than just a "few remaining skiers" from the Mid-A.  I skied or rode the lift with people from FL, SC, GA, NC, PA, TN, DC & OH.  It was equivalent to MLK and Pres weekend.

I'm guessing you were at Snowshoe.  I can guarantee you the majority of open Mid-Atlantic resorts this past weekend didn't see anything close to MLK and Pres Weekend crowds.  Not even close!

That's exacty my point.  A few resorts end up getting the bulk of the remaining skiers.  The total number of skiers hitting the slopes has dwindled -- the ones that are left end up being concentrated at a much smaller number of resorts.  It quickly becomes a poor business decision to try and compete with the likes of Snowshoe, who has the highest elevation in this region and the deepest pockets.  It's fine that a few areas go all-in to try and grab the bulk of the remaining ski visit days, but it's not feasible for dozens of resorts to do that.

Yes Scott we have heard your theory before.  Let's say you are correct and that it is indeed a good Mid-Atlantic business model for the resorts that don't have deep pockets to be content with shortened seasons during winters where it doesn't snow alot and/or snow making conditions are limited.  Those same resorts should not expect that they can get premium dollars for season passes and day passes or that people will be willing to make large dollar vacation commitments or buy real estate.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  I would contend that to think otherwise is also a very poor long-term business model as well.

fishnski: intentionally losing money doesn't exactly put a business (or its surrounding communities) in a good position to be successful in the long run, especially in a hyper-competitive industry that is seeing year-over-year declines in skier visits and increasing volatility in weather patterns.  This year has been rough for ski resorts all across the country, unfortunately.

I know there are a lot of smart DCSki readers who can think of suggestions to improve operations at ski resorts, but each resort has access to their internal numbers and projections and I don't think many of them are going out of their way to turn down business if they think the business is there.

We are talking a state park run area so small the $$ amount is piddley to keep it open...now we will have tax payer money paying state employees to sit around and pick their noses...all the buisnesses from Thomas on down should go on strike untill the State govt shows a little hustle and support...
...areas get reputations...right now and for years the Canaan Area has had a bad reputation for their lackadasial effort year after year..they only get the buis that they do because of the pristine beauty of the Area and the Natural snowfall thats saves them year after year....if the opposite was true..that the Valleys Rep was that the area was a nordic postcard to Go along with a great effort to put out a great product year after year...you would have NO VACANCY signs out this coming weekend....you lay down you die and the survivors reap the rewards...a state run facility does not have the hustle and drive since they are fed anyway...dont feed the deer in the Valley because they get lazy...and if you miss their feeding they will die!

TomH wrote:

Yes Scott we have heard your theory before.  Let's say you are correct and that it is indeed a good Mid-Atlantic business model for the resorts that don't have deep pockets to be content with shortened seasons during winters where it doesn't snow alot and/or snow making conditions are limited.  Those same resorts should not expect that they can get premium dollars for season passes and day passes or that people will be willing to make large dollar vacation commitments or buy real estate.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  I would contend that to think otherwise is also a very poor long-term business model as well.

It's a theory that's been informed by talking to people who actually run resorts -- a lot of people from a lot of resorts, not just in the Mid-Atlantic.  It all comes down to supply and demand.  They'll charge what they think people will pay for products like season passes.  If less people buy season passes because they're angry about shorter seasons, resorts will have to adapt to that and maybe we'll start to see pass prices come down.  They'll factor that into their season opening/closing decisions as well.  By scanning passes, most resorts also track how often season passholders are visiting once the weather begins to warm up.  A lot of them drop off too -- some have told me that most disappear by March even in a good year.

I just looked at Whitetail's webcams and couldn't find more than 3 people on the slopes.  And yet it's a sunny, 24-degree day, and they made 3-4 inches of snow last night.  14 trails are open.  I hope they continue to stay open since I have a season pass there and would love to get another day or two out of it, but I won't be surprised or angry if they don't.

Scott wrote:

fishnski: intentionally losing money doesn't exactly put a business (or its surrounding communities) in a good position to be successful in the long run, especially in a hyper-competitive industry that is seeing year-over-year declines in skier visits and increasing volatility in weather patterns.  This year has been rough for ski resorts all across the country, unfortunately.

I know there are a lot of smart DCSki readers who can think of suggestions to improve operations at ski resorts, but each resort has access to their internal numbers and projections and I don't think many of them are going out of their way to turn down business if they think the business is there.

Not pro-longing your season for fear of not making money this year will also hurt your revenew stream next year.  Because I won't give you any of mine or my families.

I feel the same way about leaving your snow guns in the parking lot.

This is the fourth season in a row that leads me to believe that the Valley is just not a good place to go for winter sports.

Exactly Scott.  The part that you are missing is that some of the resorts that are in question have only recently changed their season length and snow quality.  One resort in particular hasn't really sold season passes for three years since they sold discounted three year passes three years ago.  How they price their passes is up to them and I would contend the value of the pass in the eyes of many of the skiers that bought passes three years ago has fallen.  I would contend that the value of of selling real estate at such resorts and the value of other important revenue sources have also fallen.  Of course, the market eventually equilibrates and firms  that make mistakes will fail.  It just takes so darn long.  I tend to speak to the low life's on the demand side of the market and they frankly are not happy. 

 

 

Scott wrote:

 

Judging by the crowds this past Saturday there were more than just a "few remaining skiers" from the Mid-A.  I skied or rode the lift with people from FL, SC, GA, NC, PA, TN, DC & OH.  It was equivalent to MLK and Pres weekend.

I'm guessing you were at Snowshoe.  I can guarantee you the majority of open Mid-Atlantic resorts this past weekend didn't see anything close to MLK and Pres Weekend crowds.  Not even close!

That's exacty my point.  A few resorts end up getting the bulk of the remaining skiers.  The total number of skiers hitting the slopes has dwindled -- the ones that are left end up being concentrated at a much smaller number of resorts.  It quickly becomes a poor business decision to try and compete with the likes of Snowshoe, who has the highest elevation in this region and the deepest pockets.  It's fine that a few areas go all-in to try and grab the bulk of the remaining ski visit days, but it's not feasible for dozens of resorts to do that.

Scott, this is exactly the reason that the Valley would benefit from a change in ownership of Timberline. If someone with deeper pockets would take over then there would be more incentive to have the place open throughout the entire ski season. Not opening a month later and shutting down day-to-day operations a month earlier than the "big guys" that are 1000's of feet lower in elevation. A few years of opening in late November and closing April 1st mixed with better public relations and they could change the way people view skiing in March, at least enough to make it worthwhile. Instead, the mentality right now at Timberline is that of booking a place in the Valley for late February or March only to find out they decided last minute to close midweek and you're out of luck. Just watch their Facebook, there are angry customers posting this stuff every day (you have to catch their posts before they're deleted). All that just prepetuates the problem with skier visits.

It's no secret that I like to bash Bob Nutting but look at HV and 7S.   Bottom line Bob is notorius for pinching every penny and he has those 2 places open.  

HV and 7S are lower elevations, usually less natural snow and experienced the same God Awful 2 weeks of Feb.  They figured it out. 

I know SS is the big man on campus with deep pockets but it's a pain in the ass to get to.  People are willing to over come that b/c the product is there and RELIABLE.  I rode the lifts with several folks from NOVA over the weekend at SS.  I'll bet they'd choose TL or CV over SS if they had the option to do so.  (Heck - next weekend I'll ask people about TL + CV and get some old fashioned intel - and share it here.)

No offense to those that disagree but I have to side with those who are angry with TL and CV.   Who in their right mind would buy a pass to a resort that historically opens late and closes early next season?  

Another factor to remember is that Mother Nature has not been kind to our area in recent years.  As far as I'm aware, there are no big ski conglomerates with deep pockets looking to invest in the Mid-Atlantic region.

For many years, the average annual snowfall in the Canaan Valley region was 160" per year.  There wasn't a huge reliance on snowmaking with that kind of snow.

You now have to go back 9 years to find a single year that exceeded that long-term average.  According to the On the Snow Historical Snowfall Tracker (https://www.onthesnow.com/west-virginia/canaan-valley-resort/historical-snowfall.html), annual snowfall at Canaan Valley Resort (I assume Timberline was similar) over the past 9 years was:

2009: 256"
2010: 120"
2011: 37"
2012: 123"
2013: 128"
2014: 100"
2015: 87"
2016: 85"
2017: 85"

I don't remember many people complaining back in 2009.  Too bad we can't have some more years like that.

What your data says is if you own a ski resort in the Valley you better have your act together when it is cold so you can blow like crazy.  Bases need to be deep to survive the inevitable thaws.  Otherwise, your business plan should include decreasing revenues from season passes, real estate sales, condo rentals and ticket sales.  Or you could hope for a good snow year to bail you out.

 

 

your snowfall totals are way off...you dont close with this fcast....

Tuesday Night 50% Precip. / ~ 1 in

Partly cloudy skies early, then some snow showers later at night. Low around 25F. Winds light and variable. Chance of snow 50%. Snowfall around one inch.

Wednesday03/0733 | 16 °F

Wednesday 90% Precip. / 3-5 in

Snow during the morning will taper off to light snow during the afternoon. High 33F. Winds W at 10 to 20 mph. Chance of snow 90%. 3 to 5 inches of snow expected.

Wednesday Night 70% Precip. / ~ 1 in

Snow in the evening will transition to snow showers overnight. Low 16F. Winds WNW at 10 to 20 mph. Chance of snow 70%. Snowfall around one inch.

Thursday03/0824 | 17 °F

Thursday 20% Precip. / 0 in

Cloudy skies. A few flurries or snow showers possible. High 24F. Winds WNW at 15 to 25 mph.

Thursday Night 70% Precip. / 1-3 in

Intermittent snow or snow showers becoming steadier late at night. Low 17F. Winds WNW at 10 to 20 mph. Chance of snow 70%. Snow accumulating 1 to 3 inches.

Friday03/0930 | 19 °F

Friday 40% Precip. / < 1 in

Mainly cloudy with snow showers around in the morning. High near 30F. Winds WNW at 10 to 20 mph. Chance of snow 40%. Snow accumulations less than one inch.

Friday Night 60% Precip. / < 1 in

Partly cloudy skies early will give way to occasional snow showers later during the night. Low 19F. Winds W at 10 to 15 mph. Chance of snow 60%. Snow accumulations less than one inch.

Saturday03/1039 | 28 °F

Saturday 90% Precip. / 1-3 in

Periods of snow. High 39F. Winds light and variable. Chance of snow 90%. Snow accumulating 1 to 3 inches.

Saturday Night 50% Precip. / < 1 in

Cloudy. Snow showers developing after midnight. Low 28F. Winds SE at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of snow 50%.

Sunday03/1133 | 22 °F

Sunday 80% Precip. / 3-5 in

A wintry mix in the morning will transition to mainly snow in the afternoon. Temps nearly steady in the low to mid 30s. Winds E at 10 to 15 mph. Chance of precip 80%. Snow and ice accumulating 3 to 5 inches.

Sunday Night 70% Precip. / 5-8 in

Snow likely. Low 22F. Winds NE at 10 to 15 mph. Chance of snow 70%. 5 to 8 inches of snow expected.

Monday03/1232 | 20 °F

Monday 70% Precip. / 1-3 in

Snow during the morning will taper off and give way to cloudy skies during the afternoon. High 32F. Winds NNW at 10 to 20 mph. Chance of snow 70%. Snow accumulating 1 to 3 inches.

I'd be curious to see data and presentations on revenue trends, skier visits, etc.  Both nationally and for local resorts.  Hard to get because so many are private (like Snowtime).  As Alterra gets going, I'll come back and look at their results.  Vail resorts obviously seems to be doing well!

I've read Scott's opinion before, here on the forums.  I'm by no means saying it is uninformed.  Also, I agree that some (many) posters can be pretty hard on local resorts.  Business isn't easy.

That said, I still have a hard time believing that resorts could see 5 feet of snow in late March and sit empty.  March and April skiing is popular in the rest of the country; what about our geography would make that not the case?  A couple of thoughts:

- Spring skiing can mean iffy conditions anywhere, but that goes like 10x in the mid-A.  I would be very reticent to plan an end-of-season trip anywhere in the mid-A but Snowshoe, and even there I sweat it out.  So anyone that has to plan far in advance (long drive, work situation, flights, organizing multiple families, lots of kids, whatever) might always shift their mid-A trip(s) into Jan/Feb instead of March.

- If you assume that some people have to plan weeks or months in advance, perhaps many avid skiers located in the mid-A plan their March trips out West.  Certainly everyone I know that plans ski trips during FFX County Spring Break heads out west (or possibly to Vermont).  That means no matter how good the conditions are in the mid-A, those skiers are not present to take advantage.  Whitetail could get 12 feet of snow between March 22nd and 27th, but I won't be there because I'll be in CO.

- Because of the small size, limited terrain, and limited vert of many mid-A mountains, I view skiing there a little like I do going to the range in golf.  Contrast that to large resorts out West which are more akin to playing an 18 hole resort course.  I'm more likely to ski in the mid-A early and peak season (just as I am to go to the range vs play 18) to get in shape / work on technique.  Maybe not as much end of season.  For the right conditions, I'll go anytime (and new snow in the double digit inches certainly qualifies).  

 

Just a few guesses.  So, what to do given mid-A weather?  As I wrote in another thread: snowmaking is king.  Resorts that can consistently and quickly produce a premium product will avoid disappointing customers with negative experiences or early / mid-week closings. 

I'm pleased with where Snowshoe is heading.  If they can show a real commitment to blasting massive amounts of white stuff through end-of-season, and the ability to reopen / keep open a large amount of terrain, I am much, much more likely to show up in mid-late march in future seasons, as opposed to just storm chasing (which has been my mid-A March skiing strategy in the past).

"I just looked at Whitetail’s webcams and couldn’t find more than 3 people on the slopes.  And yet it’s a sunny, 24-degree day, and they made 3-4 inches of snow last night.  14 trails are open.  I hope they continue to stay open since I have a season pass there and would love to get another day or two out of it, but I won’t be surprised or angry if they don’t."

There might not be many people there today (not uncommon for a Monday), but there is a big school group coming up tomorrow. I was there last Wednesday when 4 coach buses full of kids were there. That's 200 lift tickets, rentals, and lunches being bought that probably justifies keeping the place open. At least, that's what one of the employees was telling me.

And from the standpoint of being a season pass holder, I'm pretty stoked that they're still blowing snow. We were there Sunday and there were good conditions until about noon. There was also a nice crowd. Nice as in not too busy but busy enough that you know that the resort was making money.

TomH wrote:

What your data says is if you own a ski resort in the Valley you better have your act together when it is cold so you can blow like crazy.  Bases need to be deep to survive the inevitable thaws.  Otherwise, your business plan should include decreasing revenues from season passes, real estate sales, condo rentals and ticket sales. 

BINGO!!! That's why these folks are fuming.

 

Or you could hope for a good snow year to bail you out.

Direct quote from my Father in Law who has a degree from the school of hard knocks

"Hope in one hand and S # ! T in the other and see which fills up first."

 

By the way, the Valley's comparative advantage is natural snow, elevation and terrain.  This should translate into a longer season with better conditions than most of the resorts that are closer to D.C.  So when Whitetail has top to bottom coverage and the Valley Resorts barely have any terrain open it is to be expected that skiers that have invested in the Valley in various ways feel cheated. 

my snow total paste was confusing...basically from 16/17 and back in time its.....134
......................................................................................................................129
.......................................................................................................................152
.......................................................................................................................178
.......................................................................................................................224
.......................................................................................................................118
........................................................................................................................215
........................................................................................................................189
........................................................................................................................155
.........................................................................................................................241

The only way CVR will improve is if a large lake is built to enhance snowmaking.  The new Techno Alpine Equipment uses too much water and makes too much snow, thus they sit at the bottom unused for much of the season.  There were many days when the temps were in the teens and no snow was being made.

And I remember many late March weekends at TL where Saturdays were busy, but that has been at least 10 years.     

174 inch 10 year average about 140 miles due west of the washington monument..brand new super HWY right to the valley....there are ski operators and investors that would drool with that opportunity...

im slow..just saw you beat me to the punch and much clearer snowfall totals from the getgo Bonefish..the faster fish gets the sardine!!
 

bonefish wrote:

Here is a more accurate record on snowfall. And don't forget that this season is not over yet!!! Table 3. Cumulative total winter snowfall on fixed dates from December 1 to April 1 (rounded to the whole inch)
65	Winter season	Dec 1st	Dec 10th	Dec 20th	Jan 1st	Jan 10th	Jan 20th	Feb 1st	Feb 10th	Feb 20th	Mar 1st	Mar 10th	Mar 20th	Apr 1st	Season Total
66	2017--18	11	12	22	48	57	68	78	96	101	101
67	2016--17	12	17	21	33	45	45	71	90	95	95	105	126	126	134.2
68	2015--16	1	2	4	5	7	18	53	68	87	95	99	105	107	128.5
69	2014--15	30	35	38	38	54	56	78	86	110	123	140	141	150	152.1
70	2013--14	20	26	42	47	57	67	89	98	129	139	144	158	176	177.5
71	2012--13	40	40	43	71	73	73	98	127	149	157	186	197	222	223.8
72	2011--12	25	35	37	41	55	73	76	82	95	101	108	108	108	117.5
73	2010--11	6	42	57	77	100	124	149	165	169	174	183	187	194	214.6
74	2009--10	12	23	49	61	109	115	128	168	217	247	251	251	251	251.4
75	2008--09	55	63	69	77	91	117	135	147	159	172	173	173	174	188.5
76	2007--08	6	25	34	36	50	73	86	92	106	137	143	147	149	155.2
77	2006--07	7	16	16	18	30	44	73	93	120	122	154	166	166	193.6
78	2005--06	28	48	58	64	69	78	95	107	126	138	143	147	159	166.2
79	2004--05	4	4	27	30	30	43	54	56	72	91	129	143	144	162.2
80	2003--04	13	22	50	64	71	86	119	133	134	137	152	158	167	198.0
81	2002--03	27	37	43	57	79	116	140	153	205	217	221	221	241	241.3
82	2001--02	3	3	4	19	28	39	40	47	60	66	73	73	78	81.7

 

Appalchian was VERY busy Sunday.  Just short of President's Day Sunday busy.  I also heard Sugar also did OK.  There's a lot of pent up demeand around here still to be tapped since most of the previous weekends were either pouring rain or the aftermath of closed trails.  Folks at Happy Appy and Sugar did a fantastic job of reopening an amazing amount of terrain in two nights of snow making temps, couldn't even blow during the days, just a few hours late at night/early morning.

 

I suspect what CV has encountered is that, opposite of what skerfishman says, they do NOT pay people to sit around and wait for snow making temps to materialize in March.  It's probably just an hourly gig for whoever will come take it during those 4 hours from 2am to 6am random nights here and there.  CV probably just opted to let everyone go find their summer gigs. 

I'd love to see CVR and / or Timberline upgrade their product.  Snowshoe has elevation / infrastructure / proximity to the south, but the Valley resorts are significantly closer to DC.  I did visit Timberline years ago and enjoyed it, but was storm-chasing, so we had great natural snow.  Timberline is 75 minutes closer to my house than Snowshoe, which can make all the difference in the world.

I think a big thing is that the NC resorts all have huge day trip potential, and lots of local day trippers.  Same for WG and MN.  It pays off for them to open early and close later.  For visitors there is plenty to do if the weather fails.  For the Valley, you have to really want it.  By that chart above, the last three years ahve been stinkers.  I hate it.  I want another 200 year!!!  I would have driven this weekend if the prospects were better.

I know the Valley and esp Timberline are talked about all the time on this forum and to me that is because there is a great deal of interest in both places as they have such great terrain for the Mid-Atlantic, are so accessible now (did so many trips taking Rt. 50 to Rt. 93 to Rt. 32) with Corridor H and the Valley has so many varied housing options it was always a great place to go for a long weekend or even longer.   You can rent a very nice house within walking distance to the slopes at TL for less than a hotel room at a big resort out West and if you are willing to drive to the slopes the housing options are really unlimited in CV.    We've had so many great trips there over the years with our girls, the church youth groups, friends, etc.. and just about every trip there was nice natural snow no matter the time of the Winter (often it was March).   

I think the only way CV and TL will be able to thrive in the late season period (usually after March 1st) is to show the ability and commitment to makeup for lack of natural snow with snow making efforts like all the other resorts are doing this Winter.   I understand the challenges (lack of adequate water supply, lack of resources, etc..), but unfortunately it's the cost of doing business here for the ski industry.     

It looks to be a great week for naturual snow and cold weather in the valley and unfortunately until Thursday there will be no skiing going on and on the weekend one can get excited about making it all the way up to the mid-station at Timberline for repeated runs down one blue run.    To me it's just sad.

It was quite ironic to me that I woke up this morning with a discounted season pass offer from Canaan Valley for next season in my in box.    I can't imagine many will be responding quickly to that one.  

Scott wrote:

 

Judging by the crowds this past Saturday there were more than just a "few remaining skiers" from the Mid-A.  I skied or rode the lift with people from FL, SC, GA, NC, PA, TN, DC & OH.  It was equivalent to MLK and Pres weekend.

I'm guessing you were at Snowshoe.  I can guarantee you the majority of open Mid-Atlantic resorts this past weekend didn't see anything close to MLK and Pres Weekend crowds.  Not even close!

That's exacty my point.  A few resorts end up getting the bulk of the remaining skiers.  The total number of skiers hitting the slopes has dwindled -- the ones that are left end up being concentrated at a much smaller number of resorts.  It quickly becomes a poor business decision to try and compete with the likes of Snowshoe, who has the highest elevation in this region and the deepest pockets.  It's fine that a few areas go all-in to try and grab the bulk of the remaining ski visit days, but it's not feasible for dozens of resorts to do that.

Hidden Valley was a mob scene, longer lines on Sunday than on Pres weekend.  Longer than MLK day too, on MUCH less terrain.  I took note and 60-70% were non-pass holders, they were walk up tickets.  There were church groups there, families, it was packed.  

There is still demand for this sort of product in March.  Seven Springs has events every weekend, Hidden Valley has them most weekends.  People still come in droves.  Skiing it at its best in March.

To Hidden Valley's credit they have been making snow daily on open terrain.

All great posts above.....now im seeing groomers out on Canaans slopes..wuzzz upp?

Blue Don 1982 wrote:

It's no secret that I like to bash Bob Nutting but look at HV and 7S.   Bottom line Bob is notorius for pinching every penny and he has those 2 places open.  

HV and 7S are lower elevations, usually less natural snow and experienced the same God Awful 2 weeks of Feb.  They figured it out. 

I know SS is the big man on campus with deep pockets but it's a pain in the ass to get to.  People are willing to over come that b/c the product is there and RELIABLE.  I rode the lifts with several folks from NOVA over the weekend at SS.  I'll bet they'd choose TL or CV over SS if they had the option to do so.  (Heck - next weekend I'll ask people about TL + CV and get some old fashioned intel - and share it here.)

No offense to those that disagree but I have to side with those who are angry with TL and CV.   Who in their right mind would buy a pass to a resort that historically opens late and closes early next season?  

++This!

I live in Pittsburgh, so the Laurel resorts are the local go-to.  I also have a season pass at Snowshoe, and get down there a few times.

Both advertise loud and clear that they:
a) Exist
”‹b) Are open

In November and December Seven Springs starts taking out ad spots on TV that are about 10-15 seconds in length. It shows someone skiing and boarding and says "Seven Springs is OPEN".  The mindshare of the region is "go to Seven Springs or Hidden Valley"

On Twitter today they're still spamming out notices that yes, they are still open.  Yesterday Seven Springs had a video out showing scheduled events for every weekend from now to the end of March.

I used to be a valley regular.  That was the go to place.  But as the product reliability declined, coupled with the incredible deal on the SS pass I stopped going.  

When I'm at SS I sometimes ask people about Timberline. I'd say that 40%+ have never heard of it. And that includes a number of people who live in WV themselves.

A PR campaign is sorely needed.  I've been there in deep snow years, the place is epic. But most people aren't hard core tree skiers.  They want to cruise on blue and black runs on sunny days.  Those skiers pay the bills, you need a solid base to weather the warmup that happens every year.

I think if everyone had nice weather President's Day weekend instead of pouring rain the walk up skiers wouldn't have been so prevelant last weekend or possibly next.  Pitiful weekend weather most of February and poor conditions caused many to abort their ski plans that month.  Most of them still wanted at least one more outing this season and props to the resorts who went big on blowing snow late last week to deliver that product to them/me.

crgildart wrote:

I think if everyone had nice weather President's Day weekend instead of pouring rain the walk up skiers wouldn't have been so prevelant last weekend or possibly next.  Pitiful weekend weather most of February and poor conditions caused many to abort their ski plans that month.  Most of them still wanted at least one more outing this season and props to the resorts who went big on blowing snow late last week to deliver that product to them/me.

We gonna see any pics of you in your 80's gear and 223 cm skis?

wgo wrote:

crgildart wrote:

I think if everyone had nice weather President's Day weekend instead of pouring rain the walk up skiers wouldn't have been so prevelant last weekend or possibly next.  Pitiful weekend weather most of February and poor conditions caused many to abort their ski plans that month.  Most of them still wanted at least one more outing this season and props to the resorts who went big on blowing snow late last week to deliver that product to them/me.

We gonna see any pics of you in your 80's gear and 223 cm skis?

Never had 223s, 204s are officially retired.  Still have some Split Tail 195s that are totally skiable though..

Sunday skied the same brand/model/lenght/binding I was skiing back in 1979 at age 15

 

Hold on to that Tony Alva deck...it is bank!!!

I still have an ole School quiver..mid 70's Fischer 210....mid 80 Solomon 215?...they are Long!...racers!....but im leery of bringing them out to play now since the ole lady snapped her leg in half pulling out her old skiis...bindings can fail...the shops wont check old stuff so be carefull.........hey..no one responded to my post that there were groomers out working up at Canaan...why would they do that?

fishnski wrote:

I still have an ole School quiver..mid 70's Fischer 210....mid 80 Solomon 215?...they are Long!...racers!....but im leery of bringing them out to play now since the ole lady snapped her leg in half pulling out her old skiis...bindings can fail...the shops wont check old stuff so be carefull.........hey..no one responded to my post that there were groomers out working up at Canaan...why would they do that?

Ya, only running all metal housed bindings and set way down at 1.5  (old 1-4 settings).  I manually twist out of them and pop up the heels each time before actually skiing on them to be sure they aren't frozen.

snapdragon wrote:

Hold on to that Tony Alva deck...it is bank!!!

Got a few others, but 2 are re pops..

Sweet...nice collection

fishnski wrote:

174 inch 10 year average about 140 miles due west of the washington monument..brand new super HWY right to the valley....there are ski operators and investors that would drool with that opportunity...

It seems like it should be shooting fish in a barrel. Not you, fish, the swimming kind.

like to see an 80's salomon, kind of think they came out in the 90's. would be in a long one a power 8.

(not that I was a rep.or anything)

SOLOMAN HISTORY
The family's metalworking shop opened in 1947 to produce saw blades. They soon adapted their equipment to make steel edges for skis and progressed to cable bindings.[1][4] Bindings were the primary focus until 1979, when the rear-entry SX90 ski boot was introduced; skis came a decade later.

1989..just made it..wheww....actually I bought them 2nd hand from my boss IMP and just estimated that they were from the 80's...

Yeh Eggraid..As easy as spearing a slow  invasive lionfish along side an underwater Ledge....but it must be done!....
how did ur name come about...you been poachin eggs from the local farmers coop?...

I've got some early Y2K Lab GS, race stock.  21 meter NASTAR cheater is what I use them for,, and super cold, wide open empty slope high speed cruising..

crgildart wrote:

 

 

I suspect what CV has encountered is that, opposite of what skerfishman says, they do NOT pay people to sit around and wait for snow making temps to materialize in March.  It's probably just an hourly gig for whoever will come take it during those 4 hours from 2am to 6am random nights here and there.  CV probably just opted to let everyone go find their summer gigs. 

I think that most of their mountain ops people are full employees.

jimmy wrote:

crgildart wrote:

 

 

I suspect what CV has encountered is that, opposite of what skerfishman says, they do NOT pay people to sit around and wait for snow making temps to materialize in March.  It's probably just an hourly gig for whoever will come take it during those 4 hours from 2am to 6am random nights here and there.  CV probably just opted to let everyone go find their summer gigs. 

I think that most of their mountain ops people are full employees.

That's good to know.  Adds weight to their side of the coin next time I am up that way deciding where I should go spend money.

fishnski wrote:

I still have an ole School quiver..mid 70's Fischer 210....mid 80 Solomon 215?...they are Long!...racers!....but im leery of bringing them out to play now since the ole lady snapped her leg in half pulling out her old skiis...bindings can fail...the shops wont check old stuff so be carefull.........hey..no one responded to my post that there were groomers out working up at Canaan...why would they do that?

My old quiver was retired years ago in fact I put them to rest for eternity.  Used these primarily out in Tahoe in the early-late 80's: Very first pair was 200cm Rossignol ST until the camber was gone then 207cm Dynastar Vertical's were my Sl bump skies and 215cm Atomic ARC SG with the old Marker MRR spring bindings.  The Atomic skis were very heavy with something like a 40+ degree radius.  With the forces I put on them they would hurt my knees more as I aged.  Only brought them out for first tracks generally for a run or two locally or on Upper/Lower Skyward at Whiteface the few times there.

I did eventually wise up to the issue with bindings failing and stopped using these before anything like what happened to the "ole lady" were to happen to me.  While I rented a number of retail parabolic skis before upgrading to the newer quiver I initially missed the design of straight skis.  You had to put a lot of force into them to get them to perform for you.  Now of course subtle movements and skis will turn on a dime.

Newer quiver: 158cm Atomic Redster SL w/Race Plate (great fun & a great workout)-178cm Nordica Doberman Spitfire Pro (primary ski)-184cm Nordica Firearrow 84 (waist) EDT (powder ski)-186cm Head WC Rebels i.GS RD SW w/Race Plate (Cupp Run Challenge!)

Boots: almost 40 years on Lange RS130.  Ever since the Mahre brothers made the orange boots famous never looked back.

 

14" so far, CVR closed too early and is missing out on some free snowmaking.

My hope is that CVR isn't the giving uphill skiers a hard time about using the slopes since they are closed.

Add the half foot right b4 this last series and we are talkin 20 inches...ive just gone back and read all the high 5's..pat us on the back comments from canaan earlier this year...like they would love a good winter but their Mtn Ops were ready for a bad one with Allllll that snow making...I was right to Poo Paw all that back then... If they could have sucked it up and stayed open....look at the Mountain!!...it would have paid off next year...Ski area reminds me of the fake NKorean resort..looks great..just not operating...shame and Embarasing...Fire the Coach#!!....ive rattled off a rant to my buddy Joe Manchin...

 

yeah, if you go, you could get a ticket for trespassing even tough it's a state park.   Staff members say they will still ski it though. 

 

SCWVA wrote:

14" so far, CVR closed too early and is missing out on some free snowmaking.

My hope is that CVR isn't the giving uphill skiers a hard time about using the slopes since they are closed.

 

All I know for sure is that Canaan Valley West Virginia would be a great place to open a well managed ski area, maybe two. Seems especially rude what the concessionaire is doing with a WV State Park as far as restricting access.

 

chaga wrote:

...

But, yeah, if you go, you could get a ticket for trespassing even tough it's a state park.   Staff members say they will still ski it though. 

There are a lot of ski areas in the United States that operate through long-term leases on state or Federal lands.  Vail and Aspen are in the White River National Forest, Mammoth Mountain is in the Inyo National Forest, Snowbird is in the Wasatch National Forest, Sun Valley is in the Sawtooth National Forest, Jackson Hole is in the Bridger-Teton National Forest, and so on.  Stowe and Killington primarily operate on state lands.  122 ski resorts in the U.S. operate on National Forest land.  I'm not aware of a single one that will allow skiers to ski on the slopes when they're closed without prior permission.  They would lose their insurance in an instant if they did.

You can certainly take issue with closing dates, but I don't think it's fair to criticize a ski area operator for not allowing skiers on the slopes when ski operations have shut down.  Their insurers insist upon it.  In the meantime, why not show some love to White Grass?  Looks like they have some excellent XC conditions right now.

Doesn't really make sense to me when Canaan Valley is mostly a State Park with trails all over that can be used today...there are trails from the Top itself..they hangglide off the top now...now that the lifts shut down it is just as usable as the rest of acerage..no difference...what..you cant get hurt on the "legal" Trails?...I have been on those trails on skis for hours and never saw a ski patroler...

Scott wrote:

chaga wrote:

...

But, yeah, if you go, you could get a ticket for trespassing even tough it's a state park.   Staff members say they will still ski it though. 

There are a lot of ski areas in the United States that operate through long-term leases on state or Federal lands.  Vail and Aspen are in the White River National Forest, Mammoth Mountain is in the Inyo National Forest, Snowbird is in the Wasatch National Forest, Sun Valley is in the Sawtooth National Forest, Jackson Hole is in the Bridger-Teton National Forest, and so on.  Stowe and Killington primarily operate on state lands.  122 ski resorts in the U.S. operate on National Forest land.  I'm not aware of a single one that will allow skiers to ski on the slopes when they're closed without prior permission.  They would lose their insurance in an instant if they did.

You can certainly take issue with closing dates, but I don't think it's fair to criticize a ski area operator for not allowing skiers on the slopes when ski operations have shut down.  Their insurers insist upon it.  In the meantime, why not show some love to White Grass?  Looks like they have some excellent XC conditions right now.

I don't know what happens with WV state land, but do know about Little Cottonwood Canyon.  Uphill travel rules vary by resort in Utah.  The type of land ownership is only one factor.  Snowbird does not allow any uphill travel during winter and spring seasons.  Alta allows uphill travel on the Summer Road, even when lifts are running.  I've seen plenty of folks hiking up on tele or AT skis.

The Alta season dates are pre-deterimined in the fall.  When the lifts are not running, people are free to hike to ski during early season or after Closing Day.  For that matter, when the Supreme lift used to close before the rest of the lifts in April, that section of Alta was available as "back country."  Same is true for the entire Sugarloaf side when only Collins and Wildcat are running at the very end of the season.

Stowe, Killington, and Whiteface allow uphill travel with restrictions on which trails and what hours.

Maybe it's not that they're as much worried about people hiking for turns hurtimg themselvs as they are more concerned with random folks wandering around and skiing on the frontside trails might be in the way of workers hauling gear around and moving equipment or whatever.. They'd rather these folks not be in the way of the operations that happen when the place is closed to skiing. In other words, they're worried about some snowcat or ATV hitting a hiker they didn't know was there/didn't see when hauling ass up or across the mountain.. drop a tree on someone clearing a trail, etc..

maybe Canaan doesn't want anybody on the mountain because they are afraid they might be killed in an Avalanche...its a puking snow...very dangerous!!!.....Now...how much snow has fallen and how many snowmaking hours have there been since they closed?....this joke isnt funny....

Don't worry, they have a business model that says they should not be open when it is puking snow in March.

All kidding aside, if WV wants to run CVR this way that is their business. After all, it is their money/resources on the line. Just seems like a shame that they can't keep their ski resort open in March given everything the Valley has to offer. Really seems like a missed opportunity for WV.

IMO, CVs closing is a tremendous opportunity for TL to gain some street cred.  Hopefully, they are working to get as much open as they can and promote the ever living crap out of it! 

 

Hahahaaa that’s teh funnay BD. Just heard from one of our winter house mates- finished with West Virginia, forever. He has had enough and if I wasn’t involved with a second home in Canaan Valley I probably would be too. There is no excuse for the state of skiing in Canaan Valley, and I am talking about both downhill resorts for G sake WHITETAIL is still substantially open. Thank goodness for Whitegrass.

It would be a great place for a ski resort, amirite?

Canaan is owned by west virginian taxpayers Wgo..its not their money and recources..its ours...the State Employees keep getting paid on our dime but us buisness owners suffer ....our money needs to be managed better for the good of everyone..not just the piddley Budget of the ski area itself...its much bigger than that...call the Governer..the buck stops with him.......#pisspoormanagement

As a 2nd homeowner I feel for you guys in the valley.  I'm a WV guy and root on anything WV.  We get kicked in the nuts for so many things based on stereotypes.  CV + TL just make it easier for our naysayers to pile on.   

 

Maybe two Bill. 

Blue Don don’t get me wrong, once a Mountaineer.............. I love Tucker County, I still think Timberline has the best terrain south of Vermont and Canaan Resort has excellent facilities, fun family terrain and is a great place to work. I wish the Shoe wasn’t an hour plus longer trip from home but give them credit, they are in business.

Sometimes people and organizations make the wrong decisions for what at the time seem plausible reasons.  I am getting daily emails touting “Golfing in Canaan Valley”, with pictures of golfers on lovely green grass!  Based on something I read here in DCSki, I would guess this disastrous ski season at CV Resort began when new snow making equipment was delivered but could not be put to use due to “hook-up” problems.  Different question: Does Canaan have a water source problem?  This might explain not making/banking snow every time nature provided the opportunity.  If CV had used the opportunity to make more snow this year, thus remaining open well into March, the area would have cemented itself as a “go to” mid Atlantic ski destination.  Unfortunately, OPPORTUNITY LOST”

Ironically got an email today from CVR saying the golf course is now open.   Not sure how that is possible with all the snow they've had.  

In terms of Timberline taking advantage of CVR being closed it's hard to tell if they will open more terrain this weekend as they still show only 5 trails being open (though they are closed until tomorrow).   They could probably get the most street cred (as one poster said) if they put any effort into updating their website with proper snow reports (and maybe even doing a daily email), being active on social media, adding another web cam from somewhere other than the base that really doesn't show lift lines or snow conditions, etc..

Sometimes people and organizations make the wrong decisions for what at the time seem plausible reasons.  I am getting daily emails touting “Golfing in Canaan Valley”, with pictures of golfers on lovely green grass!  Based on something I read here in DCSki, I would guess this disastrous ski season at CV Resort began when new snow making equipment was delivered but could not be put to use due to “hook-up” problems.  Different question: Does Canaan have a water source problem?  This might explain not making/banking snow every time nature provided the opportunity.  If CV had used the opportunity to make more snow this year, thus remaining open well into March, the area would have cemented itself as a “go to” mid Atlantic ski destination.  Unfortunately, OPPORTUNITY LOST”.  It is also a fact that all of the CV region does not provide sufficient lodging to support two ski areas in the Valley, especially mid-week.  Locals, including many who are DCSki posters, want to keep skiing in the valley as it was/is:  laid back, tolerant of poor management decisions, antiquated equipment, folksy base lodges,  etc.  Here CV Ski Resort has an obvious advantage over TL, but has failed to realize that the most important need is keeping all the slopes covered with snow, especially the many slopes that remain natural snow only!  What a missed opportunity!  And unfortunately it will take real money to bring the Valley ski areas up to the standards that sliders expect, thus attracting more customers, etc.

https://governor.wv.gov/Pages/default.aspx...... Call..email the Governor of Wv....send a copy to Joe Manchin..I have...long and Blistering! Not just about Canaan but the State of the Valley in general..like how we are still using a lift at TL that was installed at Copper Mtn in 1964

Now..that there is FUNNY!...Takes a fish...

Right. Of course there is still grass available to golf on in October, but the interest just isn't there. It's basic economics.

wgo wrote:

Right. Of course there is still grass available to golf on in October, but the interest just isn't there. It's basic economics.

We need a LIKE button...

End of February through mid March used to be the busiest time of the year for Timberline, often busier than President's Day weekend. Because, like this year, the snow was often the best of the season. Unlike this year, they were actually open.

A pox on all their houses, T-Line and CVR. Clueless incompetents. Bush leaguers.

 

 

Follow the dollars.  Here is a question: does anyone in this picture care about the hit to county tax revenue when visitors stop visiting in the wintertime?    http://tuckercountycommission.com/county-government/county-commission/

 

Tline site says they are opening back to the top on selected trails on Thursday...CVR???

snapdragon wrote:

Tline site says they are opening back to the top on selected trails on Thursday...CVR???

They don't check for lift tickets at TLine...

I always pay to play

Canaan Valley Resort,

Thank you for closing in the middle of winter.  Due to your premature closing, I skied Whitegrass this past weekend and Timberline yesterday.  WG was a blast as always, but the sound of gun fire in the distance was a bit annoying.  As an added benefit of CVR's premature closing, I was able to ski the Cherry Bowl Glades yesterday for the first time in a couple of years!  

 

Im starting to get some responses from all my emails I have sent out....Sent to tucker county..Manchin and the Goc of WV....the State got a hold of Hotel management which runs Canaan who then contacted me..I have also heard from Tucker county who invited me to set a date to have a conversation but im in Florida.....
Anyhoot...Ive vented my butt off...trying to do my part but im just the mouth that moved south with a vocabulary of a caveman...ill summerize what was discussed down the road...
 

Tucker County = Tragicomedy.  Incompetent and uninspired management of 2 amazing recreational assets with a brand new billion dollar highway to the 4 million people 100 miles to the east.

Kudos to your lobbying efforts, hopefully some sunshine on this situation will wake a few people up.  My two cents: the best outcome for CV is the state brings in a better vendor...  Is US Hotel & Resort up for re-bid in 2019?

 http://www.herald-dispatch.com/news/recent_news/us-hotel-and-resort-management-inc-to-operate-canaan-valley/article_eef44baa-26ee-5bf0-bb8d-f284672bf1cf.html 

http://ushotels-resorts.com/our-properties/resorts/canaan-valley-resort/

 

Im getting a better handle on the problem with Canaan but TL to me is The Govt enabling them to hang on when they should be taken over by eminent Domain( I know..wishful thinking).but at least they made it to this weekend..by the grace of the snow Gods! ..But to still be using a chairlift that was running at copper mtn co in the mid 60's is a crime to Skimanity... Back to Canaan I think the problem is this bid process for outsiders to gain a contract to run the resort..the bid is a bare bone budget that has to service both the resort and the ski area..Hotel Management told me that most of thier budget goes for the summer activities since they get more revenue and visits then...they also told me that their bid was based on Being told that the area got 190 inches a year so the snow making budget is not very much...they get a low bid contract and they have to operate within budget...I told them that was a death budget that will just spiral down and down because folks are to afraid to reserve for the valley because they dont trust both areas to produce a product...reputations are hard to overcome...the problen is this system of awarding contracts every so many years..I suggested that the Ski area should be split off and run seperate by a bonified Ski operator with experience in the industry and with a flexible budget to make sure we get thru the bad times to keep the skiers during All times!....I just fired this off real quick on my phone ...ill have some more thoughts later...

Thanks Mr Fish for pursuing this tragic tale.  If only a competent operator such as SnowTime would buy or lease the twin ski areas in CV.  What a difference this would make for the efficient and quality operations for winter sports in the Valley.  What a breath of fresh air would be felt by the entire business community of this area, rather, as now, being at the end of a super highway ready to deliver customers when there is no quality winter product to sell!!

MorganB

Good luck, Mr. Fish and I do sincerely mean that. You have been an unwavering voice for winter sports in the Canaan Valley. Timberline and the surrounding state parks have been a "go to" destination for my family as long as we've been married, even longer for me as I began to backpack the region in my late teens. I have written a letter to the Governor and I share that with all of you who will keep up the political pressure to see that state services and support in the region are well served. Good luck, winter tourism depends on you.

Dear Mr. Justice,

The Canaan Valley and nearby towns Davis and Thomas have long been a week's late winter attraction for my family. Anchored by the ski operations at Timberline Resort and Canaan Valley State Park we confidently book nights at the State Park rooms and cabins in addition to patronizing local private lodging. We've hiked in Dolly Sods and listen to live music at the Purple Fiddle and danced the hula at West Virginia's only Snowy Luau. In fact, my wife and I began our Appalachian Mountain Honeymoon motorcycle tour at Blackwater Falls Lodge in early June 1981. Where else to begin our union but at my namesake town in the heart of West Virginia's high mountain valley? Davis will always be a special place. We began a journey there and over the years brought along our children. Unfortunately we have not visited the region these last few winters due to the lack of commitment to snowmaking until end of calendar winter by both private and state owned facilities. Although we occasionally visit the region in warmer months, winter has been our consistent vacation time. Without the commitment to utilize this basic snow sport resort infrastructure it is too much a risk to budget late season vacations. It is my sincere hope that your office will look into the issue and help resort the Canaan Valley as a prime winter destination.

Thank you,
Robert Davis

It's actually probably just lip service that fisnski's getting in response to the inquiries.  We're a minority in the grand scheme of things with regard to resort travelers and psychographics.  We're probably less than 10% of their average year round customer... people still really wanting to ski in March or April.  Most of the general public is gearing up for bikes, golfing, fishing and camping right now.  Ya, some pass holders are pissed and a handful of others who would still be willing to pay walk up rates to ski get shut out.  I'm thinking about going one more day next weekend if there is decent product abailable down here and I'm still not obligated to be elsewhere.. fingers crossed.  But, other than that I've already actually put away my gear for the season not expecting the conditions to return the way they did.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath on a new vendor looking at the same visits and psychographic surveys and make a different decision with regard to shutting down the snow guns at the end of February.

crgildart is right: skiers who want to ski in March are a minority.  After the crazy warm temperatures in late February (with the long-term forecast at the time showing no relief), Canaan Valley Resort (CVR) had to make a tough business decision.  There was no guarantee that there would be snow and cold temperatures in March.  Up until that point, CVR had offered a great product at a great price throughout the season, and I heard nothing but raves from visitors who made it there this winter.  They are very much a year-round resort, and have to focus on meeting the needs of various demographics throughout the year.

CVR has also been one of the most proactive resorts I've seen.  They've had an official presence on the DCSki Forums throughout this winter, answering reader questions.  I think they're about the only resort in the region that's done that.  Other ski resorts don't pay any attention to their customers on the Internet and ignore questions.  When I've had questions for them, they've responded quickly and comprehensively.  When readers have brought up concerns, they've taken them seriously.  They pay attention to feedback.

I've said this before and I'll repeat it again: people come to DCSki to share their enthusiasm for winter sports and to get away from some of the negativity that's so pervasive in other parts of life.  Constructive feedback is always OK, but people tire of seeing this kind of negativity here.  That's not what DCSki is about, so I'd suggest people find another outlet for it.

Further to the point about business realities...Timberline's webcam today says it all.  Three feet of natural in the past eight days, the mountain looks like midwinter, bluebird day, and...nobody is there.  Practically empty.  And that's despite CVR being closed so Timberline has the only lifts spinning in the area. And despite a horrific February, which you might think would have left people jonesing to ski.

I wish it were otherwise.  When I grew up in Colorado, this was prime ski season.  People held their interest into April (spring skiing), and then general public interest waned.  But the Mid-A ain't Colorado.  

Skiing isn't growing, and that means resorts are competing for shrinking numbers of skiers.  Best capitalized resorts will win.  And crowds have even thinned out noticeably at Snowshoe, judging from the webcams.

Resorts have to deal with these realities, despite how much I wish they didn't.  

Thx so much LHC...preciate any support from you and all that have been going to and love the Valley for as long as we have....
we are the ones that truly understand what has been or not been going on...we know the wasted opportunities...the piss poor management...year after year of hopes trashed only to hope for the following year that comes and goes ...rinse..repeat....
the real negativity is from the ones that don't really know...the ones that are not emotionaly or financially involved..the ones that can just head off on a round the west ski tour..who cares if the valley lays down...its only WV...you know who you are...
We ..I could sit here and write a book on it..a blog doesnt even scratch the surface...so..for Uall that just look at it as a buisness decision...a budget...you are naive and dont really understand....its so much more...plus...I wouldn't consider any of you that just accept that march does not produce revenue as someone i would hire to run a buisness....
I have been to the NC areas in mid march and had to park in a lower parking lot and get bussed up to the ticket window...then suffer thru lines to the lift...I just checked out SS with lift lines at ballhooter at 415 pm...
Canaan is not just a run of the mill place..it is blessed with snow and natural beauty that is unmatched till you go way north up into Vermontt...if we get a warm spell you dont give up because you know that winter will return...thats the valley way!...this management company  for cannan couldnt even do their own diligence...research to know what the real weather is up at the valley...they just listened to someone tell them what the stats were...thats not a ski operator..thats someone that runs hotels and skiing ops are an after thought..I really cant blame them since the state has enabled operators like this to run the resort for years...I blame the state for most but this operator could have just patched a couple of little areas to get them to the Natural stuff and then if they at least remained open..didnt get their quota of visits at least they would not lose the amount of visits next year because they laid down...its a death budget they are on and will take a couple of years of aggresive marketing and confidence building to get more skiers...if they cannot suck it up and use the recources and equipment that the state provided with alot of tax payers money...if they cant tap into the mint spent on the super hwy right into Davis..then they would have wasted a billion to save a thousand....
One thing I will add is that Timberline comes into the plans management makes on their ski area..they figure that TL will take up their slack..they know that the snow will come and they will look good for awhile but if things sour they count on Timberline to keep the Valley humming...this is a huge reason why we are where we are now..relying on Timberline!!!..........
I really just rant and understand my limits for thought processes and articulation so im Glad LHC and others here on Dcski have spoken up......I think ive said enough for now...im really rooting on this Management Co to have a good year next and hope for positives out of TL...there is allways next year!!!....Hey TL..can we get a padded seat for our good old lift for X-Mas?....

PS norsk..there were no skiers at TL because even after tons of snow and snowmaking weather they have only been open to midstation...they only opened to the top at the last minute after like 60 friggen inches of snow...keep it real bud...

fishnski wrote:

I have been to the NC areas in mid march and had to park in a lower parking lot and get bussed up to the ticket window...then suffer thru lines to the lift...I just checked out SS with lift lines at ballhooter at 415 pm...
 

Pics or it didn't happen this century.  I've skied a weekend day in March every single season from 2007 to presend and ever seen a lift line more than 10 people deep in March at any NC resort or Wintergreen.  Satellite lot parking ain't happeneing unless maybe you are arriving at noon on a Saturday.  I've not seen it arriving before 11am on March.

Hey thanks for reading my post bud..love u long time!....yeh..it was an afternoon half day I think and there was snow on the ground so conditions were good...not nearly as good as the valley has been lately but good enough to get those rebel yelling southern boys excited!....One of them ran into me and cracked one of my ribs!

But maybe your right CDart..they should close down after Pres weekend....doesnt make sense to stay open after that...ive got to rethink this..I need Nega smurf training!!!

Norsk wrote:

Skiing isn't growing, and that means resorts are competing for shrinking numbers of skiers.  Best capitalized resorts will win.  And crowds have even thinned out noticeably at Snowshoe, judging from the webcams.

Resorts have to deal with these realities, despite how much I wish they didn't.  

Snowshoe sold out lodging last weekend (although they had a concert to help) and as of when I asked this Thursday (3/15) had some where between 400-450 lodging check ins for Friday night. Considering that the village lot was already pretty full I suspect they had another really nice weekend. The Webcams saturday were deceptive because it was drizziling and REALLY REALLY foggy, but the snow was still great. Friday may have been the best snow I have seen there in years. I will also say when we left at noon Sunday Soaring Eagle lift was running a 5+ minute wait and ballhooter 15-20 minute wait.

People are willing to book late trips to Snowshoe because they are commited to the product (Some snowmakers were on at least thursday and maybe friday night), we talked to people that had book trips well in advanced as well as people that had booked to hit the fresh snow and use thier new passes.

The obvious answer to this dilemma would be for the ski industry to ditch Christmas Break as the official start of ski season and shift from December through February as ski season and instead proclaim it as January through March as the meat of the season.  It's getting worse and worse for resorts to deliver the goods in December where March seems to be getting better and better.

LOL @ the Canan Valley Golf Now Open ad at the bottom of the page btw.. Talk about the writing on the wall hahahaha!

I know everyone says skiing is dead in March, but in PA Hidden Valley has been as packed in March as it was in January and early Feb before the thaw.

These aren't just pass holders, church groups, families, day pass purchasers.  I don't have numbers, but it seems like business has been very healthy.

They've done something similar to SS.  They've kept almost the entire mountain open as long as possible.  Contemplating one last day there tomorrow before surgery on Thursday, why not?

It's a shame Laurel couldn't last the thaw because things got really good!

Hidden Valley should last to April if they have the desire.

Sorry Norsk I have to disagree.  The reason TL was empty is several reasons. Firstly, it snowed 18 inches on a ski mountain that has no base because the base was allowed to melt weeks earlier.  Secondly, the resort has been essentially closed for three weeks (half mountain at TL is basically closed). Thirdly, TL has trained its customers that the season is basically Xmas to early March so folks make other plans.  Fourthly, when your own web page can't even declare the mountain as fully open until Thursday after being closed all week don't think people are going to make plans around the chance that you are open from the top on Saturday. I'm a case in point, I've rented a house for the entire winter in the Valley for over a decade.  For the first 8-9 years I rented from December 15 to the end of March (which was when Tline opened and closed).  I bought multiple season tickets every year. I planned on buying a place in the valley. Beginning about 5 years ago Tline started to slip on opening and closing.  I got stuck with renting multiple weeks without a mountain being open. When it became clear this was a permanent change I changed my rental to just January and February.  Started going out west at Xmas and early March. Bought an advantage Pass at WT and used it to ski early in the year and late in the year when TL closed.  Dropped any idea of buying a place in the valley. 

So what you see at TL is in my opinion a direct result of how that resort has been run.  If they see it otherwise and think like some on this site that Mid Atlantic skiing has changed to a two month season then they are doomed to failure.  I skied at Whitetail this weekend.  It wasn't packed but there were plenty of people there enjoying really good conditions, spending lots of money in the lodge, taking lessons and reinforcing a really good feeling about the winter season and the resort.  I assume the feeling was the same at Snowshoe and Seven Springs and other committed resorts. I didn't go to Timberline because I had no idea what to expect there.  If those corporate run operations think it pays to have a full season then why should the model be different at the smaller resorts?  A two month season is not a long term viable business model in the Valley - if that is the best you can muster then sell it to someone that has more vision and capital. 

 

Skiing isn't dead in March.  Skiing is dead in the Valley in general (but this is especially true in March).  Snowshoe is expensive and corporate as all hell, but they are constantly making snow and putting together the best product possible.  You cannot say that when you look at the Valley.  The ski season is two months longer at Snowshoe than it is in Canaan.  I don't know why anyone would plan a trip there unless they alreayd owned a house, or were going to Whitegrass.

PS - Scott I happen to know many of the people that are posting on your site about what is going on in the Valley.  They are all dedicated, enthusiastic, posititive, hardcore skiers.  They are upset because they have a commitment (financially and emotionally) to the Valley and a passion for the Valley and it offends them what is happening there.  Believe me, if things were good in the Valley all these same people would be bragging on it.   I want things to be great in the Valley and I know others feel that way. CV started the season well and then gave up.  Don't ask me why they stopped blowing snow - rumors fly.  Not enough water - who knows.  They stopped communicating here after the begining of the season so who knows.  I think the negativity you see here is a direct result of how dedicated many skiers are to the Valley (and not just for two months) - unfortunately that intensity of dedication is going show up as disgust and anger when things have gotten as bad as they have the last few years.  You choose to believe we are complainers (as do the resorts in question I'm sure).  I personally think it is the opposite.

TomH - I couldn't agree with you more.  We rent a house in CV (2 years at this point) and thought about buying.  After this season, we are no longer going to purchase.  It is depressing when you see so much snow and CV is not open.  We bought season passes for our family of 5, seasonal lessons for the kids, and ended up missing out on 4-5 weekends due to the mountain closing.  We love WG and will continue going out to CV to ski there.  I just can't justify investing in CV when TL and CV are so poorly run.  

I do appreciate everyone's insight into the Valley.  It has helped us decide to keep renting rather than purchasing property.  

Scott wrote:

crgildart is right: skiers who want to ski in March are a minority.  After the crazy warm temperatures in late February (with the long-term forecast at the time showing no relief), Canaan Valley Resort (CVR) had to make a tough business decision.  There was no guarantee that there would be snow and cold temperatures in March.  Up until that point, CVR had offered a great product at a great price throughout the season, and I heard nothing but raves from visitors who made it there this winter.  They are very much a year-round resort, and have to focus on meeting the needs of various demographics throughout the year.

 

Scott the business decison wasn't made in late February it was made in early January, during one of the coldest periods of the year, to not make snow whenever possible. Tell us about the state of the art snowmaking system they are still using ground guns hooked up to an air hose to make snow there. Build another pond, put a dedicated pump in the Blackwater if the problem is lack of water. Be nice to hear what the problem actually is and what their plan is to improve. 

 

Scott, we all support your efforts and goal in maintaining DC Ski as a courteous meeting place for snow sports enthusiasts!  But part of being an enthusiast is recognizing when/where there could be an improvement in our regional snow sports assets.  I hope you would agree that constructive criticism (defined as: helping to improve, promoting further development or advancement) has a place in our discourse.  I absolutely believe every contributor to this forum wants ALL of the regional ski area operators to enjoy success and prosper - its in our best interests as snow sports enthusiasts!  However, if we see obvious deficiencies that could be potentially addressed, shouldn't this be open for discussion?  A great example is on just this thread - we have learned the State of WV has hamstrung the operator of CV with it's budget requirements.  This is significant info, should be shared, and deserves illumination.

Thank you for all your efforts past and present, and I appreciate the opportunities DCSKi provides for helping grow and improve snow sports in the mid-atlantic for both this generation and the next.      

We used to rent a house in CV every other season late February over the past decade.  The pitiful product, insert blaming weather as needed, caused our groups to look elsewhere, mostly BK and other WV venues. Sorry but our business is lost, damaged reputation, and probably gone for good.

Ahhh but crgildart look at the timberslime resort cam right now, looks like it is snowing, the ground is covered with snow just in time for the Snowmobile Races!!!!!!!!!!!! You need a sled.

jimmy wrote:

Ahhh but crgildart look at the timberslime resort cam right now, looks like it is snowing, the ground is covered with snow just in time for the Snowmobile Races!!!!!!!!!!!! You need a sled.

What a shame - looks like a winter wonderland - http://www.timberlineresort.com/snowcam.php

The snowmobile race is the saturday.  Registration starts at 7am!  What a joke.

At this point, I'm just glad that someone is using the snow. 

 

Less than 10 years back, before ownership ran off mountain ops at the time, T-Line was often busiest after Pres weekend until mid March. The empty after March 1 did not apply. That’s where most skiers in the area headed. The smart ones now head to Snowshoe. 

Besides homeowners, I wonder who will buy passes next year? I won’t.

Season passes should be based on a 3 month contract ( Cannan should be able to pull off at least a 3.5 month to sometimes 4 month season )....for every day within a 3 month period that the resort cannot open with at least 50% of Terrain open from the top they will have to prorate a return to the pass holder at the end of the season......

The more the off season revenues from pass sales drops, the higher they will raise the walk up lift ticket rates in a backwards economics attempt to maintain viable operateing income.  Pretty sure that's why lift tickets went up so sharply last season..

crgildart wrote:

The more the off season revenues from pass sales drops, the higher they will raise the walk up lift ticket rates in a backwards economics attempt to maintain viable operateing income.  Pretty sure that's why lift tickets went up so sharply last season..

Thats exactly rght Cdart....they are in a death Spiral...a death budget like I have posted....Canaan would be happy to just run status quo at their ski area while rooting on a clean sweep at TL..a Buyout which is whats really needed..A big ole..UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT sign....that would breathe life back into the Valley.....And would bring folks to stay at their Canaan Resort facilities which are 1st class by the way... even if the majority were skiing at the NEW TL...Im figuring out that that is the master plan anyway...it worked for awhile untill TL wasted away into Margaritaville...

I wasn't sure if the TL4S was still hosting the snowmobile weekend, but heck, that alone would be a good opporunity for CV to blast some snow and open a couple trails.  That's the only time of the year when they can be 100% sure of ZERO competition.  Heck, might even snag some of the snowmibilers' family members who'd rather try skiing for a day than watch the madness over at TL.  Who knows.  I have no real idea if the opportunity would be profitible or not.  I just know that other than that sled traffic, the vast majority of the general public isn't planning ski days this late in March.  But, when February was a total washout I can certianly understand why more than usual are still wanting to ski another day or two..

fishnski wrote:

Season passes should be based on a 3 month contract ( Cannan should be able to pull off at least a 3.5 month to sometimes 4 month season )....for every day within a 3 month period that the resort cannot open with at least 50% of Terrain open from the top they will have to prorate a return to the pass holder at the end of the season......

Used to be a 4 month season when Amos was around at the Lime. Flip flops, salt shaker and salt days...

Happy trails Fish. Glad Mr Jimmy and John L met ya briefly @ Timbers way back when. I’ve pulled the plug on The Valley. Final straw was this winter. 10+ season passes at the Lime and 2 at CVR. 

Trying hard to head west Jan-Mar. If I get an Ikon pass, may do Snowshoe shoulder seasons.

JohnL wrote:

fishnski wrote:

Season passes should be based on a 3 month contract ( Cannan should be able to pull off at least a 3.5 month to sometimes 4 month season )....for every day within a 3 month period that the resort cannot open with at least 50% of Terrain open from the top they will have to prorate a return to the pass holder at the end of the season......

Used to be a 4 month season when Amos was around at the Lime. Flip flops, salt shaker and salt days...

Happy trails Fish. Glad Mr Jimmy and John L met ya briefly @ Timbers way back when. I’ve pulled the plug on The Valley. Final straw was this winter. 10+ season passes at the Lime and 2 at CVR. 

Trying hard to head west Jan-Mar. If I get an Ikon pass, may do Snowshoe shoulder seasons.

Damage..ur bummin me out Dude...but..a skier as dedicated as you are deserve the best trails..just come back for a visit...its gonna get better..it is..really!...Canaans got a bumper crop of Snow coming next year..250 inches....there..its fixed! Wish you the Best and give the west a big south of the Mason Dixon JohnnyRebL for us..ull make it happen!!...

JohnL wrote:

I’ve pulled the plug on The Valley. Final straw was this winter. 10+ season passes at the Lime and 2 at CVR. 

What's worse  - a 10 yr vet pulling the plug or my son's classmates? 

They are three 22 year olds.  2 live out of town.

They have access to free lodging in the valley or limited free lodging in SS.  They all purchased an SS 2018 - 2019 pass b/c in their words - CV + TL suck,they' re never open.

#novision

 

End of an era, John. We had a couple good days at TL but I wish it could have been more. Here is a story from happier times:

http://www.dcski.com/articles/22

I was not actually there for the storm in question - I think I might have been in Vermont skiing in the rain.

wgo wrote:

End of an era, John. We had a couple good days at TL but I wish it could have been more. Here is a story from happier times:

http://www.dcski.com/articles/22

I was not actually there for the storm in question - I think I might have been in Vermont skiing in the rain.

JohnBoy we are gonna miss you at the slime. Here is another article from the previous era, might have been one of @JohnL 's early trips to The Valley:

http://www.dcski.com/articles/803

 

jimmy wrote:

wgo wrote:

End of an era, John. We had a couple good days at TL but I wish it could have been more. Here is a story from happier times:

http://www.dcski.com/articles/22

I was not actually there for the storm in question - I think I might have been in Vermont skiing in the rain.

JohnBoy we are gonna miss you at the slime. Here is another article from the previous era, might have been one of @JohnL 's early trips to The Valley:

http://www.dcski.com/articles/803

 

I remember Tline's April closing in 2004.  Puked all day on Sunday and the main lift broke down early afternoon and took a while to get going.  Skiing was great.  My wife and I hiked for turns on Monday.  Got first tracks down Silver Streak (when it had trees)

 

Has anything changed at Timberline in 13yrs?  A quote from this article http://www.dcski.com/articles/803

"The solution to Timberline’s capital shortfalls, Messenger says, is to apply for grants and tax incremented financing from property tax revenues. West Virginia distributed $266 million in improvement grants during 2003. If Timberline can acquire $3-$5 million in funding, the first improvement will be to install a high-speed detachable quad. Following the installation of the lift, any additional money will be invested in a new lodge and other improvements.

Timberline’s snowmaking system pales in comparison to the ones at Snowshoe or Seven Springs. However, a new vertical pump was installed last summer that increased uphill capacity by 25 percent. Reichle “hopes to increase snowmaking capacity even further this summer.”

The resort offers some of the best terrain in the mid-Atlantic. On a weekend like March 4-6, when Timberline was 100 percent open and thirty inches of powder were waiting in the trees to be tracked out, Herz Mountain resembled New England instead of West Virginia. If Messenger and Reichle can secure state financing for a high-speed detachable quad, Timberline will undoubtedly see increased skier visits and revenues, which will in turn finance additional improvement projects. “These improvements will have a very positive economic impact,” Messenger said. “Hopefully we will be able to present that (to the state) and get some results.”

 

 

I was there for the day reported in the second article. You can see me rocking my orange hat (pre-helmet!), purple boots and 70 mm wide skis.

wgo wrote:

I was there for the day reported in the second article. You can see me rocking my orange hat (pre-helmet!), purple boots and 70 mm wide skis.

Could have seen me rocking gear like that earlier this month!

Hopefully, somebody like Snowtime will buy them out someday and make it live up to its potential. I had hoped Corridor H arriving there would spur more investment.