This is an interesting read. Snowboarding losing its edge? How does a counter culture sport handling aging?
I think there is room for all of us out there. I've heard that snowboard related sales have trended down in recent years. Don't know if it's cyclical, random, economic, demographic, or what? I've skied Liberty a number of weekends this winter and still a lot of boarders there especially during night-ski sessions. If the ratio of skiers to boarders has increased in the direction of skiers lately my guess as to causes would be: youthful boarders might be more sensitive to financial constraints/after effects of the recession, terrain parks are now as fun for skiers as boarders due to new ski designs, skis are a bit more suitable for tapping into the explosion of interest in glades, side country and back country terrain. Just guesses though.
JimK wrote:
I think there is room for all of us out there. I've heard that snowboard related sales have trended down in recent years. Don't know if it's cyclical, random, economic, demographic, or what? I've skied Liberty a number of weekends this winter and still a lot of boarders there especially during night-ski sessions. If the ratio of skiers to boarders has increased in the direction of skiers lately my guess as to causes would be: youthful boarders might be more sensitive to financial constraints/after effects of the recession, terrain parks are now as fun for skiers as boarders due to new ski designs, skis are a bit more suitable for tapping into the explosion of interest in glades, side country and back country terrain. Just guesses though.
Twin tips, park n pipe and non-traditional ski events on X-Games, etc. Skiers can go bigger than boarders in the pipe.
And every generation has to be different. Didn't Grace Slick's kid rebel against her by going straight-laced preppy?
One interesting facet of the conversation is that snowboarding, to some extent (and in particular in the mid-Atlantic), sowed the seeds of its own decline.
I think many younger skiers in this area turned to snowboarding because skiing can get boring once you are an advanced skier. The huge surge in boarders led to the rapid evolution of pipes and parks, which led to the explosion of twin tips and thus skiing in the pipe and park took off.
The other contributing factor, IMO, is how carving skis have changed. My favorite carving skis are 90mm underfoot and boot out is an impossibility. 10 years ago, when skis like this were pretty non-existent, snowboarding appealed to me because of the ability to get my face practically on the snow. Now that skis can be angled this aggressively, I honestly can't remember the last time I was on my board.
I still see a lot of snowboards. I have no clue what the ratio is. I started snowboarding when I was 12, because I thought it looked fun, and it was what other people my age were doing. Eventually I got better at snowboarding than skiing. I haven't been on skis in 14 years. It had nothing to do with a counter culture. I don't ride in the park. I just really like cruising down the mountain. I will probably continue to snowbaord until my knees can't take it any more. I'm comfortable with it, and I'm pretty good at it.
As long as there are snowboarders like me, the sport may suffer in popularity, but it will never die.
it doesn't matter at this point - now that snowboarding has become mainstream, it is just like miniskirts vs. maxiskirts - each goes in and out of fashion in a cycle. so now transitions to skiing (actually think about it - two independent feet = twice as many tricks ... snowboarder's version of crossing up is ... what?)
Crush wrote:
(actually think about it - two independent feet = twice as many tricks ... snowboarder's version of crossing up is ... what?)
I guess the snowboard version would be a one-footer (but that is very difficult and dangerous).
Snowboarding is trending older now. Think the major reson for that is the increase in twin tip freestyle skiing. I work at 7springs and I would say that the trerrain parks are close to 50/50 between skiiers and snowboarders now. I snowboard but, the tricks the skiiers are doing is amazing.
Each new batch of kids coming up since my day have trended lazier and spoiled and weak..had my niece and 4 friends stay at my place in Canaan last year (11th/12th graders)...it was all I could do to get them off their smartphones and to the slopes..another friends kids came over...they quit early...
Younger generations are losing the physical world to the tech world...My day we would be out all day biking..skating..playing all kinds of night games in the hood...had to drag us in...how many times have you had to ski around a group of young boarders just lounging around shooting the breeze..prob on their phones too...playing games...
Big reason we have had to import half a country over here to do the wk we used to do..anyhoot...throw my ole school butt some hate..Not your kid...he is different...ok..
Several interesting points in this article. I decided to give snowboarding a try at age ~60 IIRC. For several years I had been admiring "Eurocarvers" and the beautiful arcs they made in the snow. I wanted to learn that. I picked up a friends old board and promised to give it 4 days. If I wasn't having fun after 4 days I'd quit. The light turned on in the last hour of the second day. Eventually I learned to carve a trench on the toe side but never mastered it on the heel side. I hated soft boots and set the board up with plate bindings and used my lightweight backcountry tele boots. Kind of a poor mans dumbed down version of hard boots and carving boards. I set the binding angles at 45 degrees front and 35 rear. It was fun, but I couldn't quite devote full time to it. Tele was just too much fun. Both are a more flowing snaky natural feeling way to descend a mountain than alpine skis, but tele is better IMHO. Now I have a 13 year old grandson who likes to snowboard. He's getting big enough to arc my board so I am giving it to him.
Aside from this personal story, I have often wondered why hard boot carving has all but disappeared. The article and comments suggest that it just didn't fit the demographic and culture that the marketing people wanted to target, even that there was open hostility to it. If true, that's sad. A once do your own thing sport has become stultified.
...all in good fun, with the bumper stickers...maybe:)...either way my favorite bumper sticker..."no one cares that you tele"...
but can say with good confidence after teaching boarding for some 19 years that the truth is people who want to board but can't turn to ski...skiing is a lot easier to learn than boarding---not even close...that is why I would guess that folks might be on to something when they say the twin tips and skiers in parks evolution has something to do with the younger generations taking to the skis instead of the boards---they can still look "cool" and learn the easier sport, skiing, instead of learning to board...kids and for that matter people in general are generally more tech savy than athletic, lazy and/or out of shape these days; therefore they ski because its easier to do......(i'm not bashing either, I like to tele ski too, and even as an instructor I tell parents of young kids who only get out a few times a season, who want their kids to board, or whos kids want to board, to stick them on skis until they are about 8-10...they will be able to get around and enjoy the mountain experience more on skis and not get frustrated...because skiing is a lot easier to learn than boarding)
There is no doubt that beginning snowboarding is harder, but once you have made the first turns and stops on both heel and toe sides on a board I think it is an easier and shorter path to proficiency on a board. I also think the board can be the old skier's salvation. It is easier on the knees in particular and less strenuous in general. I used to see other "grays on trays" a decade ago. I think this could be a major growth demographic for snowboarding, IF the people who create the culture and identify markets are interested.
I love the expression, "nobody cares that you tele." That's the way it should be. People enjoying it just because it's fun and not to make statements or impress anyone else. I, for one, am happy to see it continue as a niche sport. I hope to never see tele as an Olympic or World Cup sport.
I have often heard that comparison to snowboarding and skiing progression and comparitive proficiency--- as it is easier to learn to ski than it is to snowboard, but once you have learned to make turns and stop it is easier to progress on the snowboard than on skis. Imo experience, I don't believe this is true. I'd venture to say that most folks just don't know the actual level of performance that is possible to get out of a snowboard if it is pressured with response in mind...I'd venture to say that 90% of folks who believe they are proficient in snowboarding are just kicking there back foot around, carving a turn, or throwing themselves in the air in the park and might as well be riding a 2x8... as far as general perception goes it probably goes the same way for 90% of skiing public belief in proficiency in snowboarding. The ability progress to a higher level of riding, the ability to use your mind and body to pressure a snowboard in specific ways in given terrain to achieve a specific equipment performance is more or less the same as skiing...the difference being how one stands on the equipment and the difference strategies that inherently arise because of stance(bumps being a good example). There are pros and cons to each anatomically as well as just basic setup....skiers have two distinct points of contact for balance advantage, but boarders can take advantage of stance to pressure the front and back end of their equipment, etc.
Imo there is a very small portion of snowboarders who are actually proficient at getting the true performance out of their equipment at a higher level...far less than compared to skiing. As far as park stuff goes, for skis and snowboards, wether a skier or boarder can make turns or not once they can spin a 360 or board slide a rail or box it's nothing but gymnastics...I've seen a lot of folks who kill it in the park but can't make a turn on steeps without chadder or just pointing it...
Wow, touched a nerve. My snowboarding son, gave me that sticker cause he knew I would think it was funny and it is a lifelong good natured argument we have had. I'm a big believer of the 10,000 hour theory. It really doesn't matter what you do, it takes time to master.
Bumps wrote:
Wow, touched a nerve.
..no, not at all..don't care either way...just boar'd on a rainy sunday afternoon/casual conversation--sorry if came across as defensive...
I started as a kid skiing, switched to snowboarding, then switched back. I felt it was easier to get to a level of being a comfortable beginner on skis. But once I reached that level on a snowboard, I found it much easier to get to a level where I could carve compared to skiing. It was only once I switched back to skiing that I wasable to carve. Maybe it was the progress in ski technology, maybe it was that I knew what it felt like to carve on a snowboard and was able to translate that onto skis, probably a combination of both. But I find skiing to be much easier on my body than snowboarding, so I suspect this is where I will stay.
Denis wrote:
Aside from this personal story, I have often wondered why hard boot carving has all but disappeared. The article and comments suggest that it just didn't fit the demographic and culture that the marketing people wanted to target, even that there was open hostility to it. If true, that's sad. A once do your own thing sport has become stultified.
I've been riding alpine boards for about 10 yrs now. I started because seeing someone rip a big fast carve looked so powerful to me that I had to try it. I got lucky and found a used board at a local shop for $60, found some bindings on eBay and used my ski boots. That setup whipped me, ski boots were way too stiff. But I stuck with it and now its all I ride with the exception of tele skis. I haven't worn softies in at least 5 years.
Suprisingly, there are still quite a few hardbooters out there. Timberline has at least 5 there just about every weekend. Common opinion is that when Burton got out of the hardboot business, it damaged the growth of the sport a good bit. Strangely, guys in spandex race suits weren't selling boards. They weren't rebels. They weren't cool.
After Burton got out there was much less access to gear and less exposure. Not that there ever was a huge push to market alpine gear. Luckily, several small builders picked up the torch and make way better, more customized gear than Burton ever did. You have to look around a bit and be willing to buy over the phone/internet but there is some awesome hardboot gear out there now. Its not cheap, which is another reason for slow growth in the sport, but its out there.
Its kind of tough to sell someone on a niche sport where a pair of boots run you $300-500, a good snowboard deck is $650 and bindings add another $300. There are cheaper ways to start out but that takes even more work searching around for used gear deals. There is a small but strong online community that makes finding used stuff easier but its still not as easy as walking into any ski shop in the US and walking out with a new setup.
I think another big part of this is that hardboots aren't very forgiving, even a softer,wider all mountain setup requires a lot of attention to your riding. You can go out on a soft boot board a few times a year and have a pretty good time. One day a year on a hardboot setup would be torture. They require you to ride with good technique and will usually point out your lack of skills very quickly.
One of the questions I get often is, "Don't those boots hurt your feet?" No, they are actually more comfy than my tele boots or soft boots. It just took $ (again) to get them there. I think people have bad experiences with ski boot rentals that fit like crap and they instantly think any boot made of plastic is a torture device. How often have you heard someone say they switched to snowboarding because the boots are more comfortable? Pretty often in my experience. So the preception of uncomfortable boots is another strike against Alpine.
Most alpine boards are pretty narrowly focused as far as their use goes too. GS, Slalom, Freecarve, Eurocarve, All Mountain, etc. Take the 185 GS board out and find out that everything is waist high bumps and your day is going to suck. Shorty slalom board on a powder day, same thing. So you almost have to have a quiver of boards which adds more cost. You can get by most days and have fun on a good freeride board no matter what the conditions. Glare ice isn't fun on any board in my opinion.
If anyone is truely interested in trying out the sport, check out http://www.bomberonline.com Its a great resource and the go to for all things alpine. The forum has a really good classified section for those looking to buy used gear. Talk to your local riders too. Most hardbooters are more than willing to talk about their sport. They've heard every question in the book already so fire away.
Thanks wv rocks. Lots of great info there.
I hope not since snowboarding saved the industry the last decade. By the way most of the hardbooters you see at T-Line are all from the same family - great people. There is also at least one Ski Patrolman on hardboots.
I sure hope snowboarding isn't dying, as I really enjoy watching and skiing with people who can ride. Another group of people that don't want snowboarding to die are the Orthopedists. I had to take one of my son's snowboarding friends to Garrett Memorial Hospital last weekend because he fractured a bone in his elbow while snowboarding. While waiting in the ER, we counted six people being treated for injuries caused by sliding on the snow. Five snowboarders and one skier. The boarders had a broken collar bone, dislocated shoulder, fractured elbow, and a couple of leg injuries. The skier had a broken leg. I know this isn't very scientific, but I wonder what the real injury stats are.
BTW - The injured skiers/boarders seemed to be equally split between Tline & WISP.
SCWVA wrote:
I sure hope snowboarding isn't dying, as I really enjoy watching and skiing with people who can ride. Another group of people that don't want snowboarding to die are the Orthopedists. I had to take one of my son's snowboarding friends to Garrett Memorial Hospital last weekend because he fractured a bone in his elbow while snowboarding. While waiting in the ER, we counted six people being treated for injuries caused by sliding on the snow. Five snowboarders and one skier. The boarders had a broken collar bone, dislocated shoulder, fractured elbow, and a couple of leg injuries. The skier had a broken leg. I know this isn't very scientific, but I wonder what the real injury stats are.
BTW - The injured skiers/boarders seemed to be equally split between Tline & WISP.
This retrospective study was done based on skiers and snowboarders who ended up in Utah emergency rooms in 2001-2006. Probably quite a different group than in WV/VA/PA, which is likely to include a lot more beginners and intermediates. Still, interesting to see the differences in age and types of injuries. So there is data around.
J. Trauma, Nov 2009: An analysis of skiing and snowboarding injuries on Utah slopes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19901663
I started skiing nordic downhill which is great exercise, then I switched to snowboarding for relaxed cruising. I still like to do that. My quads get sore after several hours of Telemark turns. A fellow freeheeler who likes to make alpine style turns after lunch once told me PM stands for Parallel More. Bike racers take Tramadol late in a race for pain relief. Snowboarding is my Tramadol PM. :)
MarzNC, quite interesting figures, thanks for posting the link.
As we've made our move to Northern New Englad, I do have to say - and of course this is anectodal, since I haven't seen any official data - that there is way less percentage of boarders in the New Hampshire slopes than in the Mid Atlantic. Our local mountain, Sunapee, has a predominance of skiers and most activities are geared towards them. On the other hand, the halfpipes and terrain runs are segregated in a different part of the mountain, so it could be the fact that we just don't see that many on the slopes. Loon, Stowe and Okemo have a significant preponderance of skiers too. Kilington, which caters to the brash, young and loud, does seem to have a majority of boarders over skiers.
Having said that, there's room for all of us in the slopes as long as we all abide by the code of conduct.
Skiied since the 80's through the 90's, the switched to snowboarding just about the time shaped skis were coming out. Became much better on a snowboard than on skis but always have ridden and carved like I skiied. Switched at a time in NC when you would get your lift ticket pulled for just jumping on the mountain or cutting into the trees, so was looking for more challenge and comfortable boots. Now I am 44... still ride, but find I tweak my back at least 2x per year no matter how fit I am when rotating hard to make a jump turn or simply carve hard. Snowboarding does seem to be harder on the body and when you catch that occasional heel side edge and go down hard, oomph! I have snowboarded in some amazing places and loved it, but now am thinking about Tele skiing for some reason. Anyone else switch from snowboard to tele (after ahving experience on downhill skiis years ago...)?
I snowboarded for 5 years as a minor activity behind telemark and alpine. After realizing that it would never replace tele for me, I gave the board to a grandson. After the first few days I found the snowboard to be much easier on the body than skiing. In fact I think it could be the old man's salvation (wonder what the Burton marketing folks think of that). Telemark is hardest on the muscles but easier on my arthritic knees than alpine. The more bent kneed stance and range of motion in tele helps to smooth out the effects of hard uneven surfaces on my knees. All this is IMHO of course.
Edited to add, I started tele in my late 40s after 30 years of skiing and took to it rapidly. I did Blue Knob's Extrovert on my 4th day and Tuckerman Ravine at the end of my 2nd season. I started snowboarding out of curiosity in my late 50s. I got to be decent on blues in 10 days but didn't take to it as fast as telemark.
If you really want to be cool, you will bust out the monoski.
I don't know if it is losing it's edge, but I think it's not growing nearly as fast as it used to.
I see an amazing number of two plank kids in the park nowadays -- maybe a third. That certainly was not the case 5-10 years ago.
Are today's kids rebelling against their boarding parents by going to two planks? Maybe.
dying no - becoming less popular yes. ihad an interesting if not drunken conversation with my neighbor here in Park City who works forbackcontry.com re: Burton and sales models etc - the finantial side of things and he pretty much confimred the below article:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/11/28/what-behind-snowboarding-drastic-drop-popularity/FAkg6xIGM0PitZem5TT2uL/story.html
it is pretty much numbers - and though this explaination was biased to the East, it is the same in the West - except for Mammoth Mountain and Northstar lol. Skis are a way more fun now and you can get more out of them. i had my Palmer 01 s out today (ironic - one of the best skis I ever knew is made by Palmer) and I swear by a modestly rocked ski with generous sidecut (except for charging then my Dyanstar Pro Riders rule) is the way to go. i have had lots of near-race and one full-race ski and they suck compared to what you can get now on everything except for a all-out pro race course and i am so over racing at this point.
snowbaords are an interesting alternative (i do ride from time to time - well infreqently) but meh.
Ullr wrote:
If you really want to be cool, you will bust out the monoski.
I know a dude who rides a snowdeck at tline... (and no, nothing straps your feet to the board!)
What stop snow deck from careening down hi when rider falls off?
I've seen him riding in the park. The board has a leash.
i wonder how many resorts would allow that? probably all but one :) like this....so much is wrong (or right?) with this photo......
