Just a post to say I finally made it to new Timberline and can say like everyone else has, how great it is.
This one post doesn't quite offset all the complaining I've done about Timberline over the years though.
Could someone introduce the Perfects to Blue Knob?
The Perfects know operations.
A couple of pix from about a month ago.
Perfects have obviously improved skiing infrastructure- lifts, snow making and grooming. But food has improved immensely, beers, and lodge. Food is very value priced for a ski area. But they are paying back their loans with beer prices. Closer to DC prices than WV prices.
BK, different market and different situation and I don’t see much hope for it. From a founding member of the DC Ski BK posse: Jim K, tromano and me. From the 90’s.
Skied 29 runs today. It was a “Perfect Day” with 2 inches of new snow at the base and close to 4 at the summit. We had upslope snow the entire day—not enough for free refills but aesthetically stunning. Every chairlift ride began with someone saying, “Isn’t this place great!” More snow on the way tonight and most of the fixed towers started blowing at 4:30 pm on the dot: the lifts closed, 20 degrees, snowmaking commences. These people know how to run a ski resort. Vail Resorts could learn a thing or two from the Perfect family. I never waited more than 5 minutes in line the entire day. For many runs, I skied right onto the lift.
JohnL wrote:
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BK, different market and different situation and I don’t see much hope for it. From a founding member of the DC Ski BK posse: Jim K, tromano and me. From the 90’s.
Why don't you think BK can be turned around? It can be done in a day trip from Baltimore a lot easier than Timberline. BK has good bones, it just needs some rehab.
itdoesntmatter wrote:
Why don't you think BK can be turned around? It can be done in a day trip from Baltimore a lot easier than Timberline. BK has good bones, it just needs some rehab.
From a business standpoint, BK is a very different situation than Timberline and the Canaan Valley. Have you ever looked for lodging for a long weekend at BK? For a week-long ski vacation? Timberline is on private land. BK is on state park land. That means the process of development or even replacing a lift is completely different.
BK is mostly on private land, but the summit lodge, parking, top of the lifts, beginner area, tubing area, and pond is State Park.
One problem with BK would be modernizing their lifts - there's a lot to work around to fit a modern lift down what's already a narrow lift line for a double. Also, can you afford to lose the mid load/mid unload? Do you build the new lift higher up and run into wind hold problems, or stay low and maybe lose trails/reroute trails?
BK has less area and less expansion potential unless you're adding a whole new trail pod. Four trails are expansions of lift or power line cuts, the whole trail network can't handle the same volume Timberline can. I've gone into detail before, but I'm convinced to make BK viable you'd need to rehab the on mountain lodging complex and, crucially, add a lift from the existing base up to the lodging - with a connection from Stembogan bowl over to that area and a couple beginner/intermediate trails on that lift. On top of building a new lift and three trails, you need ~1m in new snowguns and an ongoing commitment to upgrading and replacing pipe, and either overhaul or replacement for the two double lifts.
Or, to run the existing operation better, get 40 Impulse 10' sleds. That'll cover any green and most of most blues, plus flat bits of black diamonds, for about the same cost as two trails of stationary low E guns. They actually have decent compressors and pumps, just no good guns on most of the hill.
Helpful! BK needs owners who have deep enough pockets for big projects and the know how to work with the PA State Park folks as needed.
It was clear that the Perfects planned for spending way more for infrastructure projects at Timberline after getting a bargain for buying the resort out of bankruptcy. They had decades of operational experience from Perfect North, and fully appreciated the potential that the Timberline terrain and weather patterns offered. Not just for the existing DC/NoVA/Pittsburgh market either. I talked to a man with a Perfect North season pass last season who had driven to check out Timberline because he was offered a half-price deal. He was clearly planning on another late season trip in March 2022.
Thefirewarde wrote:
BK is mostly on private land, but the summit lodge, parking, top of the lifts, beginner area, tubing area, and pond is State Park.
One problem with BK would be modernizing their lifts - there's a lot to work around to fit a modern lift down what's already a narrow lift line for a double. Also, can you afford to lose the mid load/mid unload? Do you build the new lift higher up and run into wind hold problems, or stay low and maybe lose trails/reroute trails?
BK has less area and less expansion potential unless you're adding a whole new trail pod. Four trails are expansions of lift or power line cuts, the whole trail network can't handle the same volume Timberline can. I've gone into detail before, but I'm convinced to make BK viable you'd need to rehab the on mountain lodging complex and, crucially, add a lift from the existing base up to the lodging - with a connection from Stembogan bowl over to that area and a couple beginner/intermediate trails on that lift. On top of building a new lift and three trails, you need ~1m in new snowguns and an ongoing commitment to upgrading and replacing pipe, and either overhaul or replacement for the two double lifts.
Or, to run the existing operation better, get 40 Impulse 10' sleds. That'll cover any green and most of most blues, plus flat bits of black diamonds, for about the same cost as two trails of stationary low E guns. They actually have decent compressors and pumps, just no good guns on most of the hill.
Been skiing Timberline for years. Then as the 4 Seasons and now as the Mountain. What I experienced today was one of the best skiing days I've ever had in the mid-atlantic. Their guns were blazing and probably will continue until tomorrow AM. They have more snow on WL than I've ever skied. The drop was pure western. The Perfects know the business and given the mountain will make this a destination for weekenders, and day trippers. The new highway makes the drive an easy one from the east and in a few years, once it is totally complete, the drive from the west will be just as easy. Snowshoe? Why bother when there is Timberline Mountain as I have heard from many visitors this year. Just glad I now live here. Retirement is sweet!
Posts like this need a like button.
kwillg6 wrote:
Been skiing Timberline for years. Then as the 4 Seasons and now as the Mountain. What I experienced today was one of the best skiing days I've ever had in the mid-atlantic. Their guns were blazing and probably will continue until tomorrow AM. They have more snow on WL than I've ever skied. The drop was pure western. The Perfects know the business and given the mountain will make this a destination for weekenders, and day trippers. The new highway makes the drive an easy one from the east and in a few years, once it is totally complete, the drive from the west will be just as easy. Snowshoe? Why bother when there is Timberline Mountain as I have heard from many visitors this year. Just glad I now live here. Retirement is sweet!
Night skiing would be a great add on! My son has a commitment every Saturday morning, so this past weekend was a mad rush of getting him at 11 AM, making the 3 hour drive, getting on the slopes by 2:30, and getting in 2 hours of skiing (and a full day on Sunday). It worked out well but it would have been nice to have been able to ski until 6 or 7 or so on the first day.
johnfmh wrote:
With a few exceptions, TM is making snow at every opportunity—something that needs to be done to keep ample terrain open the entire season. I can’t wait to see how the system is further improved over time. I also can’t wait for night skiing. That adds many hours to weekend skiing—a great alternative to skiing on the crowded day shift on Saturday. New lighting technology also means better night visibility.
Timberline has started sales for 2022-23 season passes. Will NOT be good during the last few weeks of the 2021-22 season.
"Next year's winter season may feel far away, but the best time to grab your season pass is now! You can purchase a season pass at the best price offered before next winter arrives. All season passes will be 40% off for the 2022/2023 winter season beginning today! This best price is only available through April 1st, 2022. These 2022/2023 season passes are only valid for next winter, not our current 21/22 winter season."
I agree most of this.
I sent an email to Boyne a few weeks ago about Blue Knob, given that they've turned around a few resorts and also have some pretty good plans for Sunday and Sugarloaf. Ikon really needs something in this region too to make it appealing to our region. Ikon's great if you go elsewhere and go to Snowshoe often, but otherwise offers little value.
I talked about the bones being good and the terrain, but needing work on lifts, snowmaking and lodge. Obviously I never heard from them, nor did I expect too. I'm hoping that they look into it. Otherwise, someone could pitch the Perfects too. :D It sold for $1.5 million last time, so whoever could probably pick it up pretty cheap. The current owners are an investment group of doctors, lawyers and dentists out of Pittsburgh. It sounds like each of the kicked in about $100k a piece and bought it. Doesn't seem like they're making a lot of money though, as improvements and expenditures are still happening at a snail's pace.
BK's property is supposed to have around 1200 acres of private land. A good candidate for a new lodge would be near the current club house, which is near the top of Stembogan. I don't know that the current lodge is worth salvaging. It should probably be knocked down. With the parking, though, you could probably leave a small lodge up there. Someplace to sell lift tickets, a bit of food, and have some restrooms. I'm thinking more along the line of Tahoe Lodge at 7S or Avalanche Lodge at HV. Make it more of a mid-mountain base kinda like Montage.
For lifts, to start, I'd upgrade the High Hopes lift somehow. Even if a quad would be a lot of work due to the narrowness, a used triple might make sense. You'd increase lift capacity by 50%, and it wouldn't require as much room. Maybe if one's feeling ambitious - do a detachable triple? Isn't Alta selling theirs and replacing it with a quad? Regardless, even a 20 year old triple would still be newer than anything they have.
HH would be a better choice for anything detachable as it's lower and more shielded.
Eventually just do a lift to the top of the traverse and screw the midstation. If HH was then upgraded to a quad, that triple could be moved.
I think the pipe's a bit of a bigger issue. As much as I hate to say it, they could make due with the portable guns and the old sticks if they had to, but they have to get that entire place repiped. It's really leaky, and any segments that have been replaced have been connected to the old crap that still leaks. It may help the pressure and volume some, but it's more of a band aid. If they can get it replaced and done right, and also add some additional air/water capacity, I think they'd be in a good place to get some new guns. Like you said, I think a decent amount of some good portable guns would be a good interim solution and until a proper system could be bought.
They could add some lodging midmountain where they have the land, but they really have to snow and trail count to make that worthwhile. Any time we have a bad weather spell, BK gets wrecked hard. 7S and HV can at least recover pretty well, but BK just can't cope. They can barely make snow on one major trail at a time, and they barely got Stembogan open for only a couple days before that was ruined. Now they're down to 7 trails. They're at least close enough (within 30 minutes) of 3 towns that have good lodging options: Altoona, Bedford and Johnstown. Not idea, but still better than nothing.
Their passes are now on sale at an early bird price at $369. As much as I love the place, you'd have be a fool to buy a pass at that price, let alone the regular rate which was near the price of a Highlands Pass. At best, it's good for a day visit or Indy Pass if there's a good snow day, but that's about it. And if even $369 is a hard sell, they're going to have a hard time getting more to make any needed improvements.
The place needs to be bought by someone who has money to invest in it. Maybe someone's waiting for it go bankrupt so they can pick it up on the cheap - and maybe without debt?
I've always said that if I ever hit Powerball that I'd buy the place. Send me some good juju so I can. :D
Otherwise, start encouraging Boyne, Alterra, or the Perfects to look at them. :D
In the meantime, Wisp is the only other consistent option in that neck of the woods.
Thefirewarde wrote:
BK is mostly on private land, but the summit lodge, parking, top of the lifts, beginner area, tubing area, and pond is State Park.
One problem with BK would be modernizing their lifts - there's a lot to work around to fit a modern lift down what's already a narrow lift line for a double. Also, can you afford to lose the mid load/mid unload? Do you build the new lift higher up and run into wind hold problems, or stay low and maybe lose trails/reroute trails?
BK has less area and less expansion potential unless you're adding a whole new trail pod. Four trails are expansions of lift or power line cuts, the whole trail network can't handle the same volume Timberline can. I've gone into detail before, but I'm convinced to make BK viable you'd need to rehab the on mountain lodging complex and, crucially, add a lift from the existing base up to the lodging - with a connection from Stembogan bowl over to that area and a couple beginner/intermediate trails on that lift. On top of building a new lift and three trails, you need ~1m in new snowguns and an ongoing commitment to upgrading and replacing pipe, and either overhaul or replacement for the two double lifts.
Or, to run the existing operation better, get 40 Impulse 10' sleds. That'll cover any green and most of most blues, plus flat bits of black diamonds, for about the same cost as two trails of stationary low E guns. They actually have decent compressors and pumps, just no good guns on most of the hill.
Timberline's within that 3.5 hour area I'd be willing to drive (or about 2 hours from my folks) to buy a pass. Problem is that they don't have night skiing, and I tend to be more of a twilight skier ...
Any other options for a twilighter besides Wisp that isn't Vail-controlled?
wgo wrote:
I too would love it if Timberline had night skiing next season. Hopefully they will!
I guess any hill could do it if there's enough demand. It's one of the less expensive upgrades that can be done. And they can always start with a limited number of runs and add more later if it catches on.
Timberline has committed to night skiing next season. They had a supply chain issue with lights this year and ran out of time. If you look around the base new light were installed, but they are not hooked up to power yet. Both around the beginner area as well as behind the base lift are new lights. They have said they would have night skiing from mid-mountain down next season.
I was at Timberline on Sunday and I thought the skiing was fantastic. Early in the day we had about a 5 minute line but by 11 that was done and it was basically ski on. The snow was perfect early spring, no ice, soft but not sticky (started to get a little sticky after 1).
Hope to go back this weekend but these temps suck!
Thanks for the info. Hopefully when they say "mid-mountain" they are just under-promising and will over-deliver with a couple runs from the top as well!
Rickh wrote:
Timberline has committed to night skiing next season. They had a supply chain issue with lights this year and ran out of time. If you look around the base new light were installed, but they are not hooked up to power yet. Both around the beginner area as well as behind the base lift are new lights. They have said they would have night skiing from mid-mountain down next season.
Our team is working hard to complete all of our major improvement projects before the season begins, including lighting. We certainly hope to have a portion of the mountain available for night skiing, but from early winter weather to supply chain delays, there are many factors outside our control that may delay our progress on lighting for night skiing this season.
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