Came across the following site:
steepseeker.com
Seems pretty comprehensive. I found a good discussion on a reddit thread here:
From this thread, here is where the data comes from:
"I query an API for the USGS NED 10 dataset for each trail point and use OpenStreetMaps"
There is a "difficulty rating" that takes several factors into account but I am not sure of the exact details. The idea is to provide a single rating that allows for comparison across different resorts.
Here is the list for the Southeast:
steepseeker.com
I like that. I was using FATMAP which went dark and wondering how Slot fits in. These numbers look pretty accurate to me. Overall though despite the numbers, I would change a few rankings. I guess Upper Mak Attack is more often ungroomed than other trails, but in years where there are often moguls, I would rank it The Drop, Off The Wall, Knot Bumper, Cliffhanger, Outer Limits, then Upper Mak Attack. I'd also clearly put Slot higher than Mak Attack. This is why No Hessitation is such a welcome addition to Mass.
This also makes me curious about NC. I've only skied there once long ago. Boone area is such a neat place, but not thought about much. I can't bring myself to drive South for skiing.
Note they ranked Knot Bumper Glades, a much difference experience that the typical moguls on KB trail. Not sure the pitch is much different though. I wonder if they're #s are for KB.
Stephen wrote:
I like that. I was using FATMAP which went dark and wondering how Slot fits in. These numbers look pretty accurate to me. Overall though despite the numbers, I would change a few rankings. I guess Upper Mak Attack is more often ungroomed than other trails, but in years where there are often moguls, I would rank it The Drop, Off The Wall, Knot Bumper, Cliffhanger, Outer Limits, then Upper Mak Attack. I'd also clearly put Slot higher than Mak Attack. This is why No Hessitation is such a welcome addition to Mass.
This also makes me curious about NC. I've only skied there once long ago. Boone area is such a neat place, but not thought about much. I can't bring myself to drive South for skiing.
They have KB below Widowmaker, Hangover, Wild Turkey, Camp 99, Cupp Run, Devil's Elbow, Upper Sunrise, and Main Street. None of which I'd agree with.
Bonzski wrote:
Note they ranked Knot Bumper Glades, a much difference experience that the typical moguls on KB trail. Not sure the pitch is much different though. I wonder if they're #s are for KB.
Stephen wrote:
I like that. I was using FATMAP which went dark and wondering how Slot fits in. These numbers look pretty accurate to me. Overall though despite the numbers, I would change a few rankings. I guess Upper Mak Attack is more often ungroomed than other trails, but in years where there are often moguls, I would rank it The Drop, Off The Wall, Knot Bumper, Cliffhanger, Outer Limits, then Upper Mak Attack. I'd also clearly put Slot higher than Mak Attack. This is why No Hessitation is such a welcome addition to Mass.
This also makes me curious about NC. I've only skied there once long ago. Boone area is such a neat place, but not thought about much. I can't bring myself to drive South for skiing.
I came accross the site while looking for something to take the place of FATMAP. I actually did not realize until a couple days ago that FATMAP is no more.
For those interested, looks like the source code for SteepSeeker is on github:
https://github.com/joshua-coppola/steep-seeker
Stephen wrote:
I like that. I was using FATMAP which went dark and wondering how Slot fits in.
I think that's right, though I don't think the slopes of the short sections are as accurate. When comparing long slopes out west it's probably pretty good, but many of our mid Atlantic slopes only have a few turns in the steep sections, so it's easy to mess up the comparisons if those slopes are inaccurate. I don't think the original data is that precise to begin with, and then where they start and stop the slope measurement has a big effect along with how they build up the snowpack, especially if it's flat approaching the drop off like Knot Bumper.
Just as a general aside, many would say it doesn't matter at that point, but I find the comparisons helpful to figure out if I've improved or not, and a lot of the fun is about getting better. The skiing experience is better as I improve, and it's fun to work towards a goal. This is also why I do POV video. Looking at POV across the season, it's hard to differentiate between improvements and conditions, but looking back many years it's neat to see the clear evolution as technique improved. Also, sometimes I can see that I've headed down the wrong path and course adjust.
pagamony wrote:
@stephen, I think slope ratings generally take into account the steepest section. Note the long green stretch of Shay's does not affect its difficulty. This is actually in the Forest Service specifications, though I don't know if anyone follows those.
Anyone else still remember when KB had that cornice drop coular entry, which itself was worth the price of admission? That was 10m of fun.
I totally agree with Stephen that it is more difficult to measure steep over a short range. My first thought was 30m, are you kidding me? And then I saw Whoop is the only 100m diamond. Really?
So overall, what do we think is the most difficult marked slope in the region ? I note that PA was not included in the list above but obviously has some contenders. I have to consider Tukey Shoot just cause it can have those crazy diaganol ice rut 'moguls', or maybe that Sawmill 'glade' that always looks to me like a sheet of rock hard ice with big frozen hardwood trees in it, like a pinball course. It is all about conditions!
Stephen wrote:
I think that's right, though I don't think the slopes of the short sections are as accurate. When comparing long slopes out west it's probably pretty good, but many of our mid Atlantic slopes only have a few turns in the steep sections, so it's easy to mess up the comparisons if those slopes are inaccurate. I don't think the original data is that precise to begin with, and then where they start and stop the slope measurement has a big effect along with how they build up the snowpack, especially if it's flat approaching the drop off like Knot Bumper.
Just as a general aside, many would say it doesn't matter at that point, but I find the comparisons helpful to figure out if I've improved or not, and a lot of the fun is about getting better. The skiing experience is better as I improve, and it's fun to work towards a goal. This is also why I do POV video. Looking at POV across the season, it's hard to differentiate between improvements and conditions, but looking back many years it's neat to see the clear evolution as technique improved. Also, sometimes I can see that I've headed down the wrong path and course adjust.
pagamony wrote:
@stephen, I think slope ratings generally take into account the steepest section. Note the long green stretch of Shay's does not affect its difficulty. This is actually in the Forest Service specifications, though I don't know if anyone follows those.
With the exception of the NC slopes which I can't speak about, don't believe (curious), I agree with the chart, Lower Shay's Revenge.
pagamony wrote:
So overall, what do we think is the most difficult marked slope in the region ?
I remember the KB cornice....2017? That was a lot of fun.
Overall I agree with the list, although I never know how where gladed runs fit it. And not having any of the Penn. runs excludes some good ones. But it is good to see The Face at Wisp get some props.
Upper Gunbarrel is 34 degrees for the first 30 meters of the run, per the website above.
The first part of Upper Gun Barrel is legit steep and seems for just that section is steeper than anything else in PA, although if I am remembering correctly, there is a section on the skiers left side of White Lightning at Montage that is comparable. Both need winch cats, as well as Lower Wildcat at Laurel.
Extrovert at BK a tad less steep but imho the most fun steep slope in the Mid-Atlantic (including Lower Shays) because of the length and twisting double fall line.
There was a l-o-n-g thread with some hot takes on this subject on dcski about nine years ago! :-)
I checked out Steepseeker, but the stats for Laurel didn't match the information I have based on research and subjective skiing experience. First, Steepskeeker lists Laurel's vertical as 740, but Skytrac, who installed the new lift, listed the vertical rise of the lift at 760 feet. Also, a proposed master plan prepared by the resort design company Jack Johnson provided a gradient map overlaying a topo map showing sections of Lower Wildcat in the 60% to 80% range. I've skied Lower Shays and Lower Wildcat. The 'cat is just as steep if not a smidge more.
I use an app called SkiTracks which is essentially a gps tracker, but splits data into runs / sessions, etc. I took my son to Laurel and we skied upper/lower wildcat - it tracked that run at a drop of -755.1 Don't know how accurate it is. I'd say that the 'cat is a smidge more in steepness, esp right before the "runout" - which there really isn't a runout, lol.
After skiing on No Hessitation and Shay's Revenge in the same week, I claim that the upper part of No Hess is steeper than any part of Shay's. I think that puts that section of No Hess at 30 degrees. I also think Slot is more than 26 degrees.
wgo wrote:
Here is the list for the Southeast:
steepseeker.com
Definitely could be, also the whales and the bumps. Not an easy thing to determine. I wonder what other people think.
eggraid wrote:
I wonder if No Hessitation being narrower than lower Shays makes it feel steeper?
I have been using Steepseeker a ton. Thanks again Wgo. It does have some noticeable errors, but it's still so useful. It helps me tell whether I've improved or not, and working to improve is a big part of my skiing experience.
I made it to Telluride one day. Skied greens most of the day with some family. That's where some of the errors show up. For example, Village Bypass is not 30 degrees anywhere. It's just a normal green run, maybe bluish green for east coast. Also, Stella, a double blue is not 23 degrees. It's around 30 degrees. I only got a chance to make one double black run, Millions, which is 35 degrees. It's fun now to compare Millions with Shay's and No Hess: Which one looks harder? Give me your votes. Be honest.
While at Telluride did you ski, Milk Run? That run was quite steep from what I remember.
Stephen wrote:
I have been using Steepseeker a ton. Thanks again Wgo. It does have some noticeable errors, but it's still so useful. It helps me tell whether I've improved or not, and working to improve is a big part of my skiing experience.
I made it to Telluride one day. Skied greens most of the day with some family. That's where some of the errors show up. For example, Village Bypass is not 30 degrees anywhere. It's just a normal green run, maybe bluish green for east coast. Also, Stella, a double blue is not 23 degrees. It's around 30 degrees. I only got a chance to make one double black run, Millions, which is 35 degrees. It's fun now to compare Millions with Shay's and No Hess: Which one looks harder? Give me your votes. Be honest.
I was at Telluride on Sunday. I skied greens most of the day with family, so I didn't get on much. Steepseeker shows the blacks on Lift 7 as steeper than some double blacks, and I'd agree having looked down them, though I stayed on Telluride Trail with the family to make sure everyone got back to the car. This was my first time at Telluride, because it's hard to get to. We have some free flights, so we took advantage of it to get to a place we haven't been. Of course Telluride is amazing, but there would have been another reason I would have excluded it in the past. I look for places that have green, blue, and black spread around the mountain, so that I can split off easily from the group and rejoin at times. Telluride has greens, blues and blacks somewhat separated with not many greens, relative to the neighborhood. Also, I like when moguls are kind of spread around everywhere, so that I'll be skiing with the group, but then see a patch of bumps here and there that I can hit without ever really splitting off from people, and Telluride didn't have much of that. It was either a big trail off with bumps or not. I had basically 45 minutes off on my own, and I saw about as much as I could. I even ended up hiking on a road while desperately trying to make my meeting time to make sure we could get back to the car before the lifts shut down. It was a stressful moment. It turns out I went down a road/trail that's not marked on the trail map and had no sign, but then I merged with Prospect Creek where that road hike is a legitimate part of the route as marked on the trail map. Since my route wasn't on the trail map it took me a long time that night to figure out where things went wrong.
I've also been using Caltopo to fine tune some of the steepness data. It's hard to find where the trail is on Caltopo, but using Steepseeker to locate the trail, and then compare on Caltopo sort of works. Still though, using any sort of elevation profile on these programs doesn't seem to give accurate results. The best way is to draw a line across some elevation lines and measure the distance, then do inverse tangent of rise over run, and that seems to give the same results as Steepseeker.
I think there are a several reasons for inaccurate data on the topo maps. First, the snow pack can really change a slope. Stella for example drops off of a green catwalk. If you have 10 feet of snow groomed into a snow pack at the top it can easily change the pitch quite a lot. Also, I think the greens use switchbacks that aren't all captured in Steepseeker's program.
snowsmith wrote:
While at Telluride did you ski, Milk Run? That run was quite steep from what I remember.
Stephen wrote:
I have been using Steepseeker a ton. Thanks again Wgo. It does have some noticeable errors, but it's still so useful. It helps me tell whether I've improved or not, and working to improve is a big part of my skiing experience.
I made it to Telluride one day. Skied greens most of the day with some family. That's where some of the errors show up. For example, Village Bypass is not 30 degrees anywhere. It's just a normal green run, maybe bluish green for east coast. Also, Stella, a double blue is not 23 degrees. It's around 30 degrees. I only got a chance to make one double black run, Millions, which is 35 degrees. It's fun now to compare Millions with Shay's and No Hess: Which one looks harder? Give me your votes. Be honest.
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