They need them. I'm not on facebook, but copied the link...
snowsmith wrote:
Interestingly, the TR8 is not shown on the Techno Alpin website. Are these refurbished? They look new so perhaps they still had the old TR8 in their inventory? Actually, their website shows these as "success" models. How about taking some of the older fan guns, gussieing them up a little and sending them to Laurel Mountain?
Found some "like new" TR8s on the Techno Alpin website just now. Made in 2019. A dozen still available and currently in Denver.
Truck makes a left into HV in the video. Suggests they came from Trent Rd from 7S. Or coulda come from somerset. Maybe 7S had extras, or the shipment arrived there first. All speculation!
I agree. 7S has a lot of terrain to cover, and they, too, have snowmaking issues with getting the north face completely open for much of the season. Perhaps automation can help with that, but the north face cuts are huge, and a lean snow season makes it quite difficult to orchestrate snowmaking over there. I honestly lost the snowmaking plot over there after the Dupre exit. I was always told that at least a good portion of the front face (and perhaps the original north face slopes) were "gravity fed" from Tahoe.
HV, on the other hand, has relatively shorter & narrow cuts, (with the exception of maybe Continental/Riviera/Comet) and so with clever snowmaking positioning, they can usually cover their small footprint even in moderate-to-lean snow seasons.
All of these infrastructures require constant maintenance and regular upgrades, though; even though Buncher did a solid when upgrading HV, at this point that's many years in the rearview mirror.
I thought VR was re-evaluating the layout of the North Face to create more trails within the trail network by plant trees to separate openness of the terrain.
I do agree, by doing that it allows for better snowmaking and better quality conditions. Elk Mtn did this for several years to fill and create more separation between trail.
It's really shocking that Vail spent the money on the 4 new TR8's for Hidden Valley. It's a discontinued model and I'm sure they got a deal. Any upgrades are good since they have spent hardly any $ at HV since the Vail takeover.
On a separate note at Hidden Valley, the lack of investment and maintenance by the owner of the old hotel and main entry road is an absolute disgrace. The cheap patch job will last a season or two. Sell the hotel to somebody who has a vision instead of literally letting it rot into the earth. I understand a business exists to make money but have a bit of pride in your business.
Regarding SS, the lack of investment by Vail here is dumfounding. You have peer resorts like Holiday Valley to the north and Snowshoe to the south investing millions into snowmaking automation, new lifts and year round amenities. No investment from Vail whatsoever since ownership change unless you are counting the annual snowmaking pipe replacement here and there and a handful of new snowguns here and there. SS is literally dead all summer any more. Besides the 3-4 yearly booze fests, the place is severely underutilized. So so much potential.
It's really disappointing, as many had high hopes that the investment would finally come. Vail has the regional monopoly, gets their money up front for the passes, and does the bare minimum locally while using SS and all its PA resort revenue to funnel money to its showcase resorts out west.
Assuming it actually happened, supposedly VR did a major re-org to get away from using geography for subdividing the resorts around the world. The new set up was: “Destination,” “Regional Destination,” “Local,” and “Europe & Australia.” Somewhere I saw a list of resorts in Destination and Regional Destination. As I remember, in addition to Whister-Blackcomb, the VR resorts in CO, UT, and Tahoe are under Destination. Okemo and other bigger resorts in other regions in the USA make up Regional Destination. The midwest and mid-A resorts are Local. Haven't seen any further news or any names associated with the new groupings.
The original source was LiftBlog, which was picked up by media outlets.
Vail Resorts To Organize Properties by "Experience," Not Geography Moving Forward in Powder, June 2025
trickshotscott wrote:
Regarding SS, the lack of investment by Vail here is dumfounding. You have peer resorts like Holiday Valley to the north and Snowshoe to the south investing millions into snowmaking automation, new lifts and year round amenities. No investment from Vail whatsoever since ownership change unless you are counting the annual snowmaking pipe replacement here and there and a handful of new snowguns here and there. SS is literally dead all summer any more. Besides the 3-4 yearly booze fests, the place is severely underutilized. So so much potential.
It's really disappointing, as many had high hopes that the investment would finally come. Vail has the regional monopoly, gets their money up front for the passes, and does the bare minimum locally while using SS and all its PA resort revenue to funnel money to its showcase resorts out west.
marzNC wrote:
Assuming it actually happened, supposedly VR did a major re-org to get away from using geography for subdividing the resorts around the world. The new set up was: “Destination,” “Regional Destination,” “Local,” and “Europe & Australia.” Somewhere I saw a list of resorts in Destination and Regional Destination. As I remember, in addition to Whister-Blackcomb, the VR resorts in CO, UT, and Tahoe are under Destination. Okemo and other bigger resorts in other regions in the USA make up Regional Destination. The midwest and mid-A resorts are Local. Haven't seen any further news or any names associated with the new groupings.
The original source was LiftBlog, which was picked up by media outlets.
Vail Resorts To Organize Properties by "Experience," Not Geography Moving Forward in Powder, June 2025
trickshotscott wrote:
Regarding SS, the lack of investment by Vail here is dumfounding. You have peer resorts like Holiday Valley to the north and Snowshoe to the south investing millions into snowmaking automation, new lifts and year round amenities. No investment from Vail whatsoever since ownership change unless you are counting the annual snowmaking pipe replacement here and there and a handful of new snowguns here and there. SS is literally dead all summer any more. Besides the 3-4 yearly booze fests, the place is severely underutilized. So so much potential.
It's really disappointing, as many had high hopes that the investment would finally come. Vail has the regional monopoly, gets their money up front for the passes, and does the bare minimum locally while using SS and all its PA resort revenue to funnel money to its showcase resorts out west.
What's hilarious (laugh or cry) is (and I understand the scale involved here), Buncher, who really had no business getting into the "ski industry," - if you want to call it that in SW Pennsylvania - lol, did a better job of enhancing the HV experience with essentially brand new snowmaking, while Vail really hasn't done much.
The GM for 7Springs, HV, and Laurel was interviewed for Storm Skiing a couple years ago. Brett Cook has been working in the ski industry in PA for a while, as opposed to being someone who mostly had experience in Colorado or Tahoe.
Podcast #116: Seven Springs, Laurel, & Hidden Valley VP & GM Brett Cook by Storm Skiing Journal, February 2023
It's truly a shame that Buncher got cold feet and got out when they did. Allegedly at the time, their main vision was developing the old "hunting" resort property over past the golf course and towards Bakersville. When the 08 financial/real estate crisis happened, they made the decision to bail and sell. In hindsight (always 20/20), that really was a blip in time and they certainly could have rode it out and succeeded.
I get called out a good bit on this site for being too negative towards VR, but Buncher was the last owner that actually made any improvements of any kind. And in their short stint as owner, they made some awesome improvements, by far the most critical being the snowmaking investment.
needawax wrote:
What's hilarious (laugh or cry) is (and I understand the scale involved here), Buncher, who really had no business getting into the "ski industry," - if you want to call it that in SW Pennsylvania - lol, did a better job of enhancing the HV experience with essentially brand new snowmaking, while Vail really hasn't done much.
Green Tee: 1 model home placed there since like years ago - surrounding lots are sorta cleared. No other development.
Conference Center / Lodging / rec center: -> decaying. (not that I used them)
If any of you like HV as a spot like I do, you should hope that VR makes a few improvements to the aging lodge & the amenities surrounding the slopes. Make the clock work. Clean up the lodge.
Have got to wonder what Nutting and Mauch are thinking and if they even have a game plan for these facilities and the real estate they have. Things will only fall into further disrepair based on the path they are on. If they are not willing to invest, why not sell it to someone who is or perhaps take on a business partner who has more experience in resort property development? There is plenty of demand; Just take a look at all the development in the mountains of North Carolina fueled by retirees and remote workers, or on a more local level the development going on at Massanutten. Buncher had the right idea, but bad timing.
Meanwhile Vail apparently has limited interest in anything beyond the ski operations and selling subscriptions,. Both 7S and HV grew over the years due to a combination and cross pollination of Skiing and Real Estate Development. That model has been broken and time will tell how sustainable that is.
snowsmith wrote:
Agree that improvements under Vail have been minimal. Even worse under Nutting. Vail is currently fixing up the lodge. And they have invested in snow making and grooming. They still have a long way to go. Nutting is letting the hotel, conference center and sport club fall into severe disrepair. Eric Mauch, the CEO of Highland Enterprises, is an idiot. In my opinion, nothing will happen to these facilities as long as Nutting owns them. They also own hundreds of acres of undeveloped land in the resort. During the greatest real estate boom of our lifetime, they did nothing. It's been 17 years since they took ownership of the "Green Tee" development and they have not built one house; not one. I spend time at the Delaware beaches and they cannot build resort homes fast enough to keep up with the demand. At the same time they left a long list of deferred maintenance, which I am told Vail is addressing. I believe Vail purchased three resorts that are in serious need of capital investment. Seven Springs has a huge labor intensive snow making system that is aging. I would imagine that Seven Springs upgrades will take priority. The main thing we need to do is get rid of Nutting (aka Bottom Line Bob).
It has appeared over the last couple of years that VR is running HV for all it is worth as a day-traffic operation and also enjoying all the built-in season passes purchased by the homeowners (who isn't going to buy a season pass or some sort of pass if you have a place in the community?) And look how many people purchased places here since 2020 - 2021... Since the community is essentially unlinked from the Vail operation and not much crossover, coordination, or anything really, homeowners are captive at this point - and if you enjoy pickleball, golf and pool, then certainly enjoy! I like to ski at HV and I enjoy the surroundings, so I'm like the devotee, lol. That said, you are already seeing a backoff in the real estate market in this area. You do have three functional ski places in this area, you just don't want them to become completely dysfunctional....
I honestly wonder where Nutting got all his money when you look at how poorly he run things. The Pirates continue to limp along and he isn't doing much with what he has at 7S.
And I'm wondering what Vail's ultimate plan is. I thought their vision for 7S was the cruise ship in the mountains with it being self-contained, but what all do they own and are they and Bob even working together to try mutually benefit?
What I'm seeing is these resorts limping along with minimal investment, with Vail just trying to harvest season pass revenue from the locals to funnel them to the bigger resorts elsewhere.
I mean, especially when you factor in HV and LM getting even less, you can't help but wonder if they're trying to become another Blue Knob. BK at least has a reason for the minimal investment over the years because the owners are essentially broke and don't have much more money than the previous owners, but at least they seem to be trying this year with the snowmaking pipe. Yes, they need more, but that is a significant investment for that group. So I'm willing to cut them some slack.
Vail has tons of money. I get that they're out to make money like any other major corporation, but why spend $120 million on 3 mountains only to neglect them? I mean at the very least maintain what's there and keep it in good shape if nothing else. But is there really no vision?
If they don't want to make a real go of it, fine. But put it on the market and maybe someone who cares and can actually do something with it will snap it up. Maybe Boyne? Go to one of their resorts and it's a night and day difference between what them and Vail. They're actively investing a lot in their resorts and the experience is phenomenal compared to anything I've seen out of Vail lately. And they have a vision that's available for all to see. You know what's planned at Sunday River and Sugarloaf until 2030 at least. Same with their other resorts. Even in NE there's a huge difference in feel and quality at Boyne and even other resorts.
I've been out of the loop for a while? It's pretty much the same thing at the old Snowtime 3? Or is Liberty getting what little Vail's willing to invest?
I know we live in a tough market compared to others, but it's really getting depressing seeing everything go down the tubes in a relatively short amount of time. Makes me wonder what, if any, future there is for the hills around here.
It is a tough market, and always sort of has been that way in western PA. You get a lot of day traffic and a lot of food and beverage. I think what has been happening at HV and to a degree 7S is that they're probably making their numbers on locked in pass purchases and F&B. I'm not privy to what the numbers are actually like at HV. I did teach skiing there for a handful of years. We were always busy given even decent conditions. And let's say as an observer there for over 16 years it has been more of a Saturday-Sunday crowdfest - for which they hire minimally, push them hard to handle the food and beverage and hope for the best. Not many outside people stay at HV for the weekend - for non-homeowners it is not a "destination" where you hang for 3 days. They just don't have the amenities or activities anymore. it is an in-and-out scenario, apart from an admittedly loyal base of homeowners who often host people and keep a baseline pulse of money going through there. The rest, like I said, is day traffic, certainly ski lessons, alcohol purchase, etc.
I don't see that changing any time soon. That wasn't the Kettler vision of the place (when it had a functioning nightclub, the conference center was actually used, etc.) But times change. Have no doubt though, you wanted someone like Vail to operate it, cuz like, who else would commit to buying it honestly?
There is some investment happening at the lodge this year. And the operation of HV and LM has been decent over the last few years. However, unlike the traditional resort business, Vail is focused on "subscriptions". No interest in real estate, no real interest in Summer activities and no real interest in lodging. Additionally, as long as Bottom Line Bob owns and Eric "The Beancounter" Mauch run Highland Ventures, the shuttered Inn, Conference Center and Health Club will gradually succumb to the elements. There needs to be an effort to get Highland Ventures out. Their business model is- charge alot and spend very little. In this case their model is - spend nothing. They have no vision. Another depressing feature is the Vail ownerd, old "Outback" lodge on Route 31 which was used for snow tubing and contained a series of restaurants over the years. The building is a solidly built Amish post and beam structure. Vail owns this building and the snow tubing and for what ever reason, there seems to be no interest what-so-ever is resuscitating the snow tubing. Route 31 is on of the busiest roads in the County so I don't get leaving this building to sit there and rot.
Real Estate - Nutting owns hundreds of acres of land in HV. During one of the most bullish resort real estate markets in my lifetime, they built nothing. They must be the most stupid business people I have ever seen. We need to get them out. Vail provides stability so we just need to encourage them to invest locally.
The problem with the snow tubing area & lodge structure there on 31 is that they both are just far enough out of the resort/ski area to be considered a cohesive part of the ski operation. (They tried sort-of self operational restaurants, etc.)
Had a connection been made between the far north summit slopes and there (and maybe a lift, but lifts are expensive, for sure!) - it would certainly be a different story. In years past, they were selling the snow tubing as something akin to a night/reduced lift ticket, and people would go to the main lodge, purchase, and then drive out, re-park and go snow tubing, even though I think at some point you could buy tubing passes there. Not well-explained or well-thought-out.
And all of this is kind of moot now, as everything is mostly done over a mobile device. It's possible to have a nicely-integrated experience that wraps out onto 31, but nobody wants to put up that kind of money.
the building on 31 is not the one at avalanche lift.
Ok, I think I know which one you're talking about then.
Seems weird to have 2 tubing places that close together, not that either of the are open now.
The tubing building is just out of the entrance to the right, on 31. Gravel parking lot.
The avalanche building is accessed from the entrance road, off to the left, and serves as a warming hut / maybe lockers, vending, and well they used to sell passes there too.
Here is a photo of the decrepit snow tubing barnc(aka Outback lodge) - sorry it’s sideways…
I'm going to age myself a bit here but for those younger or new to the area, there was a time when that was the Lost Pelican. And it was happening and fun. One of the places a lot of the employees (including instructors and patrol) went for food and drinks after finishing shifts.
I miss those days.
I do not remember the Lost Pelican, but then I was a teenager skiing at HV with other teenagers at the time. I remember I think a John Harvard's made a go at it in the late 90s early 2000s? at that location, but honestly, in my memory, even in the eras with decent money -- it didn't look like anyone gave that spot any love. Having a history, albeit brief, as a weekend ski instructor, I would have enjoyed that back in the day.
There was also some back-bar in that building in the back left portion that I remember going to, just around the time when I started instructing. Sort of a galley bar. Don't know what that was called actually.
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