I noticed that "G" had added this comment to Scott's note about changes at WISP, even though the note is about Snowshoe. If true, the changes might appeal to some and turn some off. The comment by "G":
"Well it looks like Snowshoe is still way ahead of everyone else, and that will be where I'm at again this year. It's cool that T-Line and Wisp are adding trails but the Shoe is adding terrain parks I hear. After talking with my boy who works up there, I hear Spruce Glades will be a Pro Park that you have to have an extra pass to get into. There will be a seperate Terrain Garden there as well. Then they are turning Silver Creek into a Super Park with features on every trail except Flying Eagle and the greens. Just thought I'd give everyone a heads up on the scoop, way to go Shoe."
I expecct this will generate some conversation between DCSki loyalists!
The Colonel

Silver Creek as a terrain park? On the one hand, it makes perfect sense. On the other hand, this is a trend that is really taking hold of skiing: converting great intermediate terrain into snowparks. And frankly, it's maddening. Intermediate skiers are really getting shafted by resorts around the country, and let's face it, Silver Creek had the best blue skiing at the 'Shoe. So now apparently the uncrowded, good snow, excellent intermediate skiing will be handed over to pipes 'n parks.

It will keep shredders and skiers separated, which could make the slopes safer overall. But why resort after resort keeps taking away it's prime intermediate skiing and replacing it with snowparks is beyond me. It's making it more and more difficult to plan a family ski vacation- there are two or three resorts out west that I've crossed off the list simply because they don't have a dedicated intermediate skiing area anymore. Snowshoe isn't doing themselves any favors either.

Terrain parks are great feature for any resort but there comes a point where it could be too much of a good thing. I haven't seen the new layout at Snowshoe yet [our warm up there will be 12/16-19] but I would be very leery if they start positioning park elements on the runs. I suspect that inexperienced kids trying to show off to other inexperienced kids could cause some nasty collisions with skiers/boarders just carving the trails. Not to mention even more sit/stay groups in the middle of runs.

If that is the case, it brings up an interesting question and some serious safety issues as to whether the resort could be liable in the case of serious injury in a collision cause by the close juxtaposition of park elements to a trail. I would think they would be liable. There are good reasons for terrain 'parks' to be segregated from regular runs.

Maybe its getting to be time to move on to other WV resorts..

Hey, johnfmh, any rental units over in your neck of the woods that accept well mannered day-crated dogs? If you know of any, please reply private. Thanks.

Well if Snowshoe screws with Bear Claw then I might seriously consider never going there again on a weekend. I'll go up to VT instead.

Good point. Sorry about that- let me clarify. It would keep the folks who like to jump and flip away from the folks who don't. Less likelihood of an accident because there will be fewer people setting up surreptitious jumps on the main runs. In theory. Don't know what the stats are on collision-injuries at resorts that have done stuff like this... anybody got that info or know where to look for it?

Yeah, Snocone. There are a few rentals who do permit pets, but you usually pay a premium for rent. It's best to get to know an owner who will rent to you. I know if a couple units in nwoods who MAY if convinced. They have canines, but may be reluctant to let strange doggies in their units.

Yup .. we do just that. Actually the condo is a townhouse and a really nice one at that. Even has a barbecue on the back deck for grillin' the good stuff. Nothing better than barbie sirloin and cold beer after a hot shower at the end of a great day of skiing. As soon as we book our dates, I'll post the rental ID of the property; maybe someone else would be interested.

Snowcone's post was very interesting. I think the discount airlines have the potential rob some business from local resorts like Snowshoe that depend heavily on week long visits from people in the Southeast, but will not effect the day-tripper venues like Whitetail or weekend places like 7 Springs where you can easily rent a motel room for a single night.

The biggest costs involved in a ski trip are lodging, lift tickets, and for those who don't have equipment, ski rentals. Food is a cost, but since we have to eat wherever we are, most people don't get too concerned about food costs-especially if they can defray those costs a bit by renting a condo.

What skiers and riders are looking to buy with their money is quality snow, good terrain and vertical, decent weather, and fast uphill transportation. In all three of those areas, the West trumps any resort in the Mid-Atlantic by a huge a margin. But the West is more expensive and time-consuming to get to. That's the real cost as far as the skier is concerned: convenience. One can easily visit CV or 7 Springs or even Snowshoe for a three day weekend, but a three day weekend to UT, while possible, is not as convenient. However, the longer one takes for a ski trip, the better the deal the west becomes because of the snow/terrain/vertical/lift quotient.

With regard to New England, I love New England because I grew up skiing there and have relatives there, but I would NOT recommend ANY resort there (except maybe Stowe) for people from this area. It's easier to hop a plane to UT, Tahoe, or CO and get much better snow/terrain/vert/lifts and WEATHER for the money and time spent on travel. In New England, the freeze/thaw cycles are the most brutal I ever experienced. In the same trip, you can experience 20 below temps with howling winds on one day and then driving rain the next. The weather, in short, is terrible. If you are local and can pick and choose your days, New England can rival some of the best skiing anywhere but getting the weather right is just about impossible.

Europe: I've traveled to Europe to ski for the past four years-primarily to combine skiing with visits to my wife's family. We have been very, very lucky with regard to snow and weather. Europe has suffered more than any ski region in the world from climate change and I have read many horror stories of European ski trips ruined for lack of snow (especially trips scheduled early in the season). While some resorts like Schladming are developing snowmaking systems that come close to what we see in the US, most European resorts are decades behind America when it comes to snowmaking. Furthermore, with the exception of Austria (which has a lot of hydro), the European power grid does not have as much spare capacity as ours, making it unlikely that we will ever see snowmaking on an American scale there.

When the snow does hit, it often comes in a few big storms that last many days. During these storms, lifts close and visibility gets reduced to zero due to the lack of trees on many of Europe's slopes. I've actually experienced true vertigo skiing in these conditions. Many people sit in their hotels and just wait it out. With that being said, when the sun finally comes out after a big storm, skiing in Europe is marvelous because of the big vertical of the Alps combined with the excellent, modern lifts that area standard at most major European venues. There's also a lot of very steep terrain in Europe, and views to die for.

As for a cultural experience, skiing in Europe is not the best way to experience European culture. The ski resorts are often very far away from major cities and not easy to get to via public transportation (believe it or not). While some of the ski villages are quite quaint, many are not. If your goal is to see Europe, a hiking or cycling trip is a much better way to combine an athletic activity with travel.

So where will I go next year? Probably the West because for what I am looking (snow/terrain/vert/lifts/weather), it's the best bang for the buck, and more convenient to travel to than Europe. As a representative from the Hauser/Kaibling Tourist Office once said to me, why would you ever travel to Europe when you've got UT and CO? Many Europeans, in short, are absolutely convinced that America, on average, offers better skiing than Europe. Why do you think so many UK types travel here as opposed to the Alps to ski?

Another factor I am looking closely at is timing. It seems like the most experienced skiers on DCSki defer their big trips to March because crowds are low, the days are longer and a little warmer, costs are less, and snow is almost as good as February and sometimes better. My plan for next year is to hold off on booking a trip until late February. I'll then take a look at base depths and go where the snow is. This might take me back to Europe but I seriously doubt it.

Very interesting post John. How are conditions around Christmas in Europe? There's talk of a potential Christmas/New Years in Zermatt next year with my parents, but none of us are that familiar with conditions at that time of year.

With regard to the west- March snow is, in some ways, the best of the year. The deepest snow bases occur in March and April as it accumulates all season, so your chances of coring your skis gets reduced to nil at that time of year. The snow that falls isn't quite as dry, but we're talking the difference between 4% or 6% water content. You also get exactly what you mentioned- longer days, slightly warmer temps (though skiing in Utah isn't all that cold- it's not New England Nor'easter brutal moist cold air anyway), a little less of crowds.

I've taken several trips in the middle of January. By that time of year all the terrain is open but the overall depth can be spotty. Also, the weather pattern in January is much more stormy- two of my three week-long mid-Jan trips saw almost every day covered in clouds. On an 11 day trip to Jackson Hole in mid-January one year I saw one morning and one afternoon with the sun out; the rest of the time was cloudy with intermittent light snow. We only had one powder day on top of it all.

In March, the weather patterns improve. Storms still move in but the spacing between them is usually better so you wind up with longer stretches of sunny weather. Naturally there's no guarantees that you'll get sun but you're improving your odds. Also, this might be my personal opinion but I think UT is sunnier than CO. It's much drier there and it seems like when a storm ends the sun comes out; moisture doesn't linger over the desert like it does over millions of acres of ponderosa forests. However, the extra dryness makes the winters a bit more fickle, too. The most consistent snow I've seen out west is CO. They get dry winters but they always seem to have some snow, even when other places are choking on dust.

One last point if you haven't been out west before. The quality of skiing is entirely dependent on the track of the jet stream. If a ridge builds in the best skiing will be in the Canadian Rockies; conversely an arctic pattern sets New Mexico up for the memorable winters. Because UT, CO, and CA sit in the middle, they stand the best chance every winter of getting some snow, no matter where the jet stream goes (think of a bell curve and CO, UT, and CA are sitting right on the mean). And when the jet stream comes right down the middle of the country... well, look at what happened last winter and you'll know.

2 adults at Silvercreek for 3 nites & 2 days of skiing last early feb with 13 inches of new powder, all for the grand total(tax inc)of $385....not one wait for the lifts..great view of the slopes from our 2nd fl window & a bar with awesome happy hour prices....2 days missed work...how can you beat that??!!>?

Jimmy and RodgerZ -
I'm *everybody's* friend ... my middle name is Promiscuous ! Beeen away from the board 4 a while but hikin' in The Canyons today and I was gettin' excited about skiing since it was 70 degrees and some leaves were turning yellow and falling.

Jimmy - Well I have updated my list. In addition you must be able to transport 4 hetro porn mags and two porn DVDs to my place for delivery - we are tired of driving to Wyoming for it!

RodgerZ - Well it looks like I will be able two put in another "big" season before I run out of $$$ so give me a shout it looks like another good season commin' - like last season we have EC on precip and EC on temps - my own "bonez" feeling is it will be like 1999-2000 season but a little better = a great season! PS - the lowdown for powder/ungroomed : think Atomic Sugardaddy PimpDaddys - the guys this upcomming season are into in here and they say it's gonna take over the Salomon Pocket Rockets ... 193s for your 180+ guys, 183's for my size (140) fast skier guys ...

I think the key is convenience. Even coming from Cincinnati I can leave work on a Thursday night, be in Rimfire by midnight, ski a crowd free day on Friday, dodge the crowd on Saturday, and ski a crowd free morning on Sunday. On Sunday everybody else is either hung over and sleeping late or packing it up. I take some groceries and beer - hit the hot tub after ski. Just check the weather and throw the skis on top and go. If I don't want to pay the price for Rimfire, I stay at the Inn, Spruce Lodge, Mountain lodge, Mountain Crest, etc (and soon Expedition Station). I also sometimes stay at the Hampton Inn Thursday night in Buckhannon for $65, get free breakfast and be on the trail by 9:00. All in I can get by for under $500. You just simply can not do that by going out west. I have also gone up several times early season and late season when they were giving lift tickets away free. You just have to be flexible and somewhat creative to save some money. If you are paying window prices on holiday weekends - then you will not have a good experience. Last March was unbelievable conditions with relatively low crowds. Many folks assumed that skiing was done on WV.

I just don't think you compare apples-apples when looking at WV vs. Utah, etc.. It's like comparing Home Depot to Baily's Hardware. Yes HD is much bigger, has a lot more to offer, is cheaper when you purchase in quantity. However, I can walk to Baily's and get the quick fix that I need for a little more price per item. They both have thier place and thier time.

I have never been to Snowshoe and felt that it was not worth it (have been at least 30 times). I have always been pleasantly surprised with the conditions. But i'm not expecting a 6 foot powder dump (like I got in Durango) and 2500 foot vertical.

For me personally, I assign intangible cost to the stress factor of: making the plans and reservations, packing up (skis, boots, etc.), get to the airport early, park (don't forget that expense), shuttle, go through security, shuttle again, sit on the runway breathing stale air, get there, wait for my bags (assuming they get there), find a shuttle/cab, check-in hotel. By that time I am easily settled in at Rimfire dreaming about the manmade conditions that await me the next morning. Plus I somehow seem to spend more money than planned when I go out west (maybe its the altitude and the giddeness from the great conditions)

John, I think your numbers are a bit exaggerated. A hotel for $40? Lift tix for $45? I don't think so. $40 Won't buy you a roach motel anywhere, period. Besides, a cheap hotel at SLC means taking a bus or driving up to the slopes. I personally prefer DWW's idea. By the time you get to the airport early, get through security, land, then get your luggage and either rent a car or take a taxi, you've spent much more time than it would take some of us to drive. It's also nice to "park it" at Snowshoe the whole weekend and not get into the car again until you leave. I know SLC boasts that you can get in on the morning flight and hit the slopes in the afternoon; yeah maybe for an hour or two.

There's also the risk of lost luggage (happened to me twice out west), delayed or cancelled flights and being held hostage to the time that the airline comes and goes. If it's a busy ski day and you're driving, you can leave early. If there are 10" of new snow and no one out, you can stay a few hours more.

With that said, I always try a couple of trips out west each year. But when you add in the costs of airfare (especially if you fly out of a small place like, say, Roanoke!), rental cars and lodging (especially if you want to get close to the slopes), it can get pricey. A buddy of mine and I did Vail the first week of April for four days at $300 each, including airfare and car, and I thought that was the best bargain I had ever had.

I guess I've done the travel drill out West so often that it's become routine for me. No stress for me, less stress than driving the 5 hours over dark mountain roads to Snowshoe. Plus, alcohol is a great stress reliever! OK for flying (as long as you're not the pilot), but not so good when driving.

I've been a hard core skier for over thirty years, and I don't think I've ever gone to bed at night dreaming about the ideal man-made conditions that await me the next morning. Just doesn't float my boat.

But if everyone from the Mid-Atlantic preferred skiing Snowshoe over Utah, Utah would be a lot more crowded. So I encourage your line of thinking!

A friend of mine rents a house on the burbs of Salt Lake every April. The place is cheap then and has an inground pool and hot tub. The rent an SUV and ski Snowbird and Alta every day. He said their trip time to the slopes is generally about 30 minutes which he says is worth it considering they can come home and swim for a few hours after skiing.

John, I should have set a precursor to my comments. I live a little over 2 hours from Snowshoe, and bought a place there a few years ago (a Snowcrest for $41,000!), so it's kind of my regular place. I put in about 20-25 days a season in there, rent my unit over Christmas break to pay all the bills and a season pass, so for me that makes a difference to be local.

But you can't even compare here with out west. It's always worth a few extra $$ to go out west if you can. I mean, wide open trails that go forever, more acreage in one bowl than in all of WV or PA, awesome snow, tree skiing, the list goes on. If I lived in a DC area where I could get a direct flight out there, I might go more.

My wife often hints that we should stay in WV for our annual ski trip and not go for a big time destination like Europe or the West. All things being equal, we might get more skiing accomplished by staying locally and I must admit that I once cancelled a trip to VT to stay in the Mid-Atlantic figuring that I'd enjoy skiing Timberline and 7 Springs in 20 degree weather more than Okemo at -10, but still.....every skier must experience over 2,000 feet of vertical at least once a season to keep things in perspective. Everything else really is apples and oranges.

If you can get the 7:00 AM Delta nonstop out of Dulles, you can get to SLC a little after 10:00, and be on the slopes by 11:30 at the worst (unless your wife forgets her ski jacket and needs to go shopping-- argh!). As others have mentioned here before, if you arrange it in advance and ski at Canyons, Park City or Deer Valley, you get a free lift ticket for that day as well. The free ticket supposedly doesn't apply if you fly out Thursday night. Take the 5:00 PM nonstop back Sunday and you're home before midnight after skiing 'til 2:00 PM (or later, depending on your risk tolerance). Granted, when I do that trip I usually try to take Monday off work and come home Monday night for an extra day of skiing, but it is possible to get in a 3-day Utah powder fix by buying two lift tickets and two hotel nights. Works for me.

Jimmy, that price I quoted for silvercreek was a fri,sat & sun nite stay! Don't take thier 1st price when calling the reservation line.You can bargain with them.There was a lady I was speaking with at the bar after skiing 1 day who had been seriosly ripped off on her pkg deal.When i told her of my deal she ran off to the front desk & came back with a $200 discount smile on her face! She had a large party with her & was able to get that much back.I thought i was going to get a drink out of the deal but..NOTHING...anyway i left the blues in MD! Actually i catch them early & late in the year.I can make some awesome Bluefish jerky for football season. Whats up with the skins? See my new team the panthers got em the other day! Skins are still #1 in my book though.Getting back to the subject the whole equation would change if we could see West Virginia's full potential realized with the developement of "ALMOST HEAVEN" ski area! If this country were united, the war in Iraq would be over.Same thing with a new ski area....