I see that Whitetail is going to announce some new improvements for the 2010 season. They have not announced what the plans are yet, but I would like to know if anyone has any information on it before it is released to the public. Are they going to move the halfpipe around to the expert side? Or perhaps add some more intermediate/ expert terrain? Hook a nosey brutha up!

I saw that announcement too, Jamie, so Whitetail has my attention. Would you prefer to see the halfpipe moved to the Expert's Choice area?

I've often thought WT might consider building a trail from the top of the high-speed quad along a zig-zag route down to the Easy Rider Quad, opening up more vertical to upper-level novices. The exposure might be too southerly, though.

Maybe some snowmaking upgrades? Gladed skiing b/w Limelight and Snow Dancer?

A gondola connection to Liberty to give Whistler in BC some competition and support Mercersburg's bid for the 2022 Winter Olympics?

Inquiring minds want to know....

Woody

I don't see glade skiing being remotely possible at Whitetail, even with blow-in from adjacent trails. Plus I'd hate to see the results of the typical Whitetail blue-square slider in a glade.

This thread reminds me that I never made it up to Whitetail this past season; first season I've been shutout there in well over a decade.

I would prefer a new summit day lodge nestled atop somewhere between the 'Expert' lift and the 'WT Express' lift. Imagine a nice outdoor deck with scenic view. The summit lodge could be another place to take a break, have a drink, and eat a hot meal. Intermediate/Expert skiers can frequent the summit lodge.
Non-skiers with laptops or books or brown lunch bags can overtake the base lodge. I know I am exaggerating but you get the idea of what I mean.

thats actually a great idea! never even thought of that possibility for WT but would have great views if they cleared out the woods on both sides for a 360 view! also would be great considering how overcrowded their lodge is

What about a bench at the top of the mountain for the snowboarders to use to buckle in? Oh wait a minute... Whitetail put one of those in last season, why do the snowboarders still block the trail?

Cause it's one TINY bench for 2 people. There are only 200 boarders coming off that lift and still crowding out with them (ok ok US) sitting in the slope trail. The idea of a top of the mountain lodge or at least outside patio and area full of benches would help alot.

Actually the spot for the summit lodge I was thinking would be somewhere above where the two trail merge - Ridge Runner(blue) and Upper Angel Drop (blue). Just a little clearing and little bit of earth moving for the lodge. Imagine coming down Ridge Runner to the lodge on the right. Or imagine coming down Angel Drop and bear to the left to the lodge above the merging area.
When leaving the lodge you have a choice to ski down to either the Expert lift via Drop In or to the Whitetail express via Homerun.

Does anyone know if they own 'the other side of the mountain' that faces west/northwest? They may be able to hold snow a little better on that side of the moutain.
You know at one time they had a drawing posted in the lodge showing future ski trails and there were 49 planned. That's alot of snow making!
A day lodge at the top of the mountain would be a great place to stop and eat. Like the Tahoe lodge at Seven Springs.

And it's steeper!

Very steep--at least for the Mid-A. I have looked at this before on Google Earth and it looks like about 400 feet of vertical drop in the first 1,000 feet of potential slope.

I like the thought of a lodge at the summit, but not so sure if that's in the works anytime soon...even a deck would be nice.

However, look for a trail going from the top of EZ Rider - straight off the lift, more or less - and running parallel to skiers right of Snow Park, exiting at the top of the beginner terrain (between U Me and the Quad). It adds more green and conveniently backs up to real estate owned by Snowtime (w. utilites and paved access) - thus creating ski in/ski out residences.

As for the master plan - the initial developer did make such a map. It explains why the Expert's Choice lift is called "K" by insiders. It was the Kth lift (or 11th) going from left to right on the map (I believe). Amazing, since WT has six chairs, the last added last year (which I doubt was on that initial plan). Don't think that plan is still used as a guide, but Snowtime seems eager to add more terrain...

Finally, I'm fairly certain the backside, referenced above, is not owned by Snowtime. Legend has it an old man in the back valley owns it and will never sell. I do believe that terrain was contemplated in that master plan though.

...all this subject to the views/opinions/hearsay of others. Just what I've heard/know.

To heck with a summit lodge, how about a warming hut with a ticket window at the base of Experts Choice, with a walkway to the lot beside Fallmount.

After all the work last year, Freshpow's new trail scenario sounds most likely.

How about some serious slopes. Some good black Diamond's etc. Just spend the money on the hardcores for a change. I am tired of lodge improvements and bunny hill trails. Give me something nasty and sick! Please.

You want something nasty and sick?? Check out the bathrooms at Timberline on a Saturday. That'll make you plenty sick!

would be fun if they could add even 2 trails to start off the back. problem is they already have an "experts" side.. i think the additional lodge would be the best, or anywhere they could add some more blue terrain to lessen the crowd on angel and homerun, can be scary at times with people going everywhere

I'd love it, but do you think they have any terrain for that? About 10 years ago Whitetail used to let Bold Decision bump up (versus Exhibition.) It was a pretty challenging trail at times.

We have a few short steep pitches here in the Mid-Atlantic, but not much with length and steepness. Something that will really make those thighs burn.

I see that on skiwhitetail.com we should find out what is going on up there next week. They are going to post a webisode of the new improvements. I guess we will never get a backstage pass from these guys prior to the rest of the public. Oh well. Like I said, I hope they are going to add some more difficult trails or perhaps a better terrain park. I don't need another place to buy overpriced food and no beer!

O boy - I leave you folks alone for a couple weeks .....
I don't have any official info because they know I'll just leak it out. Scott often gets the news first. But I can answer some of the questions/speculation.

The intent is to move the half pipe into the wooded area between the new jib junction double chair and the terrain park. That's as definite as not done yet info can be. It may not make the list this year, but it is getting close.

The original master plan had two lifts and several additional trails in the bowl between Fanciful and Snow Park. This included a couple of black trails. It's my vague recollection that the new Sidewinder trail was not part of the master plan trail layout. The original intent for a trail like Sidewinder was to run it from the top of Snowpark to the top of Velvet. That was investigated before Northern Lights was built and ruled out as too expensive (blasting/regrading). I had heard that housing was going to be placed into the bowl area, but the Ledgewood complex is going in first between Stalker and Velvet. Speaking of Ledgewood, it might be possible that construction could start this fall? I would not be surprised if the housing market collapse delays this one more year. BTW - Snowtime does not have access rights to the new paved road that goes halfway up the side of Stalker/SnowPark (where the Whitetail Real Estate group[not part of SnowTime] is building single family houses. But they do have access rights to the existing gravel (cough) maintenance trail that runs all the way to the top of the mountain.

Gladed skiing in between Limelight and Snow Dancer is not likely. There's a ton of deadfall and nasty rock piles in there. Maintaining coverage in there would be difficult. There is a ridgeline between Angel Drop and Bold that has some potential short Northish facing lines that would be awesome, but I've never heard any discussion of this and these were not in the master plan. If I were in patrol, I'd have heart failure at the mention of a gladed trail at WT. We have enough problems as it is with people sneaking in to the periodic drifted coverage that sometimes occurs. It looks ok. Most people who do it get away with it. But every time people start doing it, someone gets hurt. If you've examined the terrain close up in the summer, most of the near trail terrain needs 3 feet of base to be close to being safe. Do your glade skiing/dreaming at Blue Knob please.

The original master plan also had a summit lodge over the top of the aforementioned bowl. I had heard that another lodge at the base of Northern Lights had priority over a summit lodge. More lodge space is an eventual must do.

Last year's upgrade list included a significant electrical capacity increase. The stated reason was for future growth in addition to what was required for putting fan guns and lighting on Sidewinder. Expect more fans guns and snowmaking capacity this year. My bet is there will be something relatively big this year that uses juice.

It's two benches on the top of Angel Drop, but they come and go depending on grooming.

I've looked at the topo map for the "backside". That quick 400 foot drop is mostly a cliff band. That would be really cool for some of us, but it's not practical Mid Atlantic resort terrain. Unlike the front side, it just gets flatter and flatter until the bottom (boring!). Whitetail does not own that property and none of it was in the master plan map. You can see the cliff bands on the other side of the wildlife management area from Blairs Valley road. They look the same on the topo map as the back side. This link will get you to the trails.com topo map for Whitetail. The free link sucks, but a free trial will let you see what I'm talking about.

You want something sick? I've asked about blowing in the cliff right outside the lodge at the end of Fallmount. I've measured that at 40-55 degrees of pitch. And the runout is a problem. Management has laughed at that suggestion. Really hard. I'd like to see that as special event terrain. Once blown in, it would need to be fenced off in the middle of the cliff to prevent tourists from attempting the run and denting the lodge and then fenced again at the bottom to catch rockfall as it melted. But it would make for incredible photos.

awesome post rusty.
i heard that the new improvements were coming early next week(tuesday-wednesday).
i was just wondering if you could post the original master plan that you talk about.
thanks

I wish I'd taken a picture of the dumb thing. It was a map about 5 feet tall and 8 feet wide. It used to be hanging up in what is now the walled in display room next to the information desk in the main lodge. It spent some time in ski school, then sat in the basement for a while. I haven't seen it in years.

thanks.
how many lifts did it have?

The bowl area had two additional lifts on the master plan map. Although I did not count the lifts on the master plan map, rumor has it the reason we call the Expert's Choice chair lift "K" lift is because all of the lifts on the map were lettered (vs. named) from left to right. K would mean there were 11 lifts on the master plan. Today we have we have 7, not counting the tubing hill.

the bowl between sidewinder and fanciful?
it would be awesome if they did build those lifts

Yes - that bowl area. Consider that those plans are 18 years old. Nice, but don't hold your breath.

the web site says the annnouncment will be made on wednesday

<sound of crickets chirping>

So, Whitetail, what gives? It's Wednesday ....

Woody

The fact that they have a picture of what looks like a pipe groomer backs up Rusty's posts. Did they buy a groomer just for whitetail I wonder. The pipe has been very on and off over the past few years. I remember someone saying that they shared one with Liberty which may be why. I think the current location of the pipe is kind of off putting too. If I can log pipe runs off the new Jib Junction chair then I am a pretty happy rider.

Not to put folks down but could Snowtime get some collaboration going between the park crews on their mountains. Liberty seems to have a great crew. I love their layouts and their jumps seem really well built and maintained. Whitetail's feel kind of lumpen and haphazard sometimes. Last year there was a table that no matter how hard I hit it and how hard I ollied I couldn't clear it. Me and my buddy got kind of bloody minded one day and just kept hitting it out of frustration but no dice. Over on the beginner park mind you there were a few tables set up that even if you hit them at a crawl you cleared the length then ate your knees landing out in the flat, that was mostly because the whole jumped sloped away from the lip so even if you only went a few feet you ended up with quite a drop with a hard flat landing.

Whitetail did have some nice hip jumps mind you. I'd also like to see a nice step up booter.

As far as I can tell, based on email, is that the great whitetail improvements are.... summer improvements to Roundtop.

c'mon, its sunday and whitetail hasen't posted the improvements.

There's an 8-day streaming delay due to rights issues

thanks, i didn't know that, that means it will be out on thurs.

What exactly is the meaning of this comment? Whitetail seems capable of posting info darn near immediately during the winter.
The Colonel

Right, Colonel. Notice that Comprex is winking.

Woody

Site now says Tuesday. In the meantime you can use them crickets for bass fishing.

Here's what I heard, they're moving the half pipe, adding more terrain park features, and improving their snowmaking.

Whitetail Resort Announces Over 1.7 Million Dollars In Capitol Improvements For The 2009-10 Winter Season

June 8, 2009 by whitetailresort

http://whitetailresort.wordpress.com/


"MERCERSBURG, PA - With the summer upon us, Whitetail Resort is currently gearing up for what will be another busy off-season on the mountain. A new half-pipe, terrain park and beginner adult carpet lift fit into a long list of improvements that total over 1.7 million dollars. These exciting improvements will keep crews busy working into the fall to prepare for the 2009 - 10 ski and snowboard season."

they also need to repair the snow guns that got broken and sabotaged.

???? when did this happen?

Sorry, but I don't think that Whitetail has done a very good job of rolling out this announcement.

First there was the promise of an announcement on Wednesday, June 3. Then that was delayed until today, Tuesday, June 9. (Be careful not to promise what you can't deliver.) OK, some signs of summer work did indeed appear on WT's website today. Kudos.

However, the website says, "Visit The Videos Section For More On The Announcement". OK, Whitetail, I clicked your videos link. The most recent episode available today is "Springfest Pond Skimming". Somehow, I don't think that's what WT spent $1.7 million for and is touting as, "... The Announcement You Have Been Waiting For".

Today's WT home page also directs us to "The New Episode Of Whitetail Live". Well, Pardner, ol' WT Live features "Whitetail's Wild West Spring Fest". Giddyup.

C'mon, Whitetail, get it together. You don't put a sign on a grocery store saying "Open for Business" until the shelves are stocked, the lights are turned on, the employees are trained, and everything else is in place.

Don't get me wrong, I like Sidewinder and I'm glad that the new (in 2008) chair on the terrain park draws some of that crowd off of Upper Angel Drop. I suppose the Half Pipe is being shifted to the right location, and I'm glad that newbie adults will now have their own magic carpet.

... and I'm buying a Snowtime pass through Whitetail for 2009-10. Maybe next year you'll do something for us blue square and black diamond skiers.

Thinking snow (or at least trying to),
Woody

Here's a direct link to Whitetail's video. It was posted to YouTube at some point today but I don't think they have a link to it on their web site yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5GKJkpWXxI

Could it be this is Whitetail's way of creating buzz about the next season? (cough cough)

In the meantime, let's look at some of the things Whitetail has been doing for blue and black trail skiers.
1) A $399 season pass is nothing to sneeze at
2) Every fan gun added increases snowmaking capacity by increasing total air compression. Last year a new water pump was added to increase water pumping capacity. Those kinds of increases can show up in unexpected places like Far Side and Fanciful. The snow on Far Side was noticeably better last season.
3) We have a chance for a decent 1/2 pipe this year.
4) The jib junction double provided some relief to the high speed on busy days.

If that is not enough, what's on your list?

Well said Rusty, in this economy any improvement is a good improvement. But the news rollout was a cluster. Any idea where the other fans will go?? On the video they indicated that 3 of the fans were going to the terrain park and the others spread around the mountain. If memory serves me right--the beginner terrain is pretty well peppered with fans. Also, Limelight and Exhibition (at least on one side). So could we expect some on Bold and Far Side?? As I recall, there are no fans on either of these trails as well as on Snow Dancer and Fanciful-unless you count the one or two at the top.

Well Keith - you do know your Whitetail. Since I work for the mountain, it would be bad form for me to acknowledge the obvious. At this stage of the game, I don't get any special access to the news versus what you all get. But I typically start getting the details as the summer progresses and I get a chance to talk to people who are more involved.

But I can speculate a bit. The fan guns require electricity to be run along the trail. So if they're going to put any fans on trails like Bold or Far Side, they'll probably do the whole trail. Far Side is not likely because they recently refittted that trail with tower guns and it's one of the last trails we open. Bold would be tempting, but my guess is that "the trail" would be Snowdancer. The new terrain park where the old half pipe was already has nearby electricity and would only need 2-4 guns tops to cover the area, but if I were the boss I'd be real tempted to bulldoze some more space while I was filling in the old pipe. There is no doubt that some of the 24 new guns will go there. There are also some small "coverage holes" on trails that already have fan guns where it would be nice to add a gun to improve cover, but this would be a bonus. Lower Limelight would get my vote for 1-2. Fanciful is on the list for lighting. I think that would happen before guns go in.

Thanks Rusty, you also made me realize that there was no new lighting on Fanciful and Snow Dancer as part of the improvements.

Points made and taken, Rusty.

Having started skiing in the 1960s and not being a terrain park or halfpipe user, I tend to think of adding new runs as the primary kind of improvement that would serve blue and black trail skiers. Glades and/or a narrower, twistier, more "old school" trail would be fun, but I recognize that graded, fall-line, treeless trails of more uniform width are easier to cover, groom and assure safe conditions.

As I indicated, I appreciate WT's efforts to add uphill capacity for terrain park users and that this draws them away from runs (e.g., Upper Angel Drop) that they're using primarily for access. I also appreciate -- and noticed last year -- improved snow conditions due to investments in snowmaking and grooming.

Woody

Fanciful is the only trail that is not lit.

I am still interested in suggestions for improving the upper level experience at Whitetail. My personal list includes adding trails on the ridge between Bold Decision and Angel Drop, sculpting a wall on skiers left of Far Side and doing special events on the cliff outside of the base lodge (I freely admit that this is more insane than glades).

To any Whitetail employees reading the forum:

On the Whitetail site the trail map has some kind
of small trail leading from the top of Fanciful to
Sidewinder.

Is this some kind of maintenance trail that could
be expanded into another blue run?

I drove my Rodeo on that trail once. It was also used for non-lift access to the top during the mountain biking days. It's the maintenance access road used to service the facilities at the top of the mountain. It starts from an access point in between the Inns of Whitetail and the Slopeside townhouses, runs behind the top of Snowpark and continues on to the top and then along to the top of the Expert's Choice lift. I believe that was a trail on the Master plan, but my suspicion is that the resort would prefer to be able to use wheeled vehicles to access the top during winter for as long as possible. As an access road, the pitch is more appropriate for a green trail, but the current width is way too narrow by Whitetail standards. From Fanciful to Snowpark, the trail would be mostly South facing. The combination of low angle and South facing means it would be difficult to keep snow on it. We're much more likely to see future trail expansion on other parts of the mountain. This year, for example, the conversion of the old half pipe into a park and the new half pipe are both on terrain that is approximately East facing.

Our summer employee newsletter has arrived. Snowdancer is getting 11 of the 23 (hmm - we lost one?) new fan guns. WT is also adding another 1000 gallon per minute pump for snowmaking. From the pics it looks like the old half pipe is just being filled in and converted to a park as is versus additional clearing.

Some of the stats from last season:
11 inches of natural snow (Yikes!)
20% more man made snow made last year
939 hours of snowmaking
208+ million gallons of water used
1157 acre feet of snow made (over 117 skiable acres)

Working the numbers out, that new pump could mean another 25% increase in snowmaking for 2009-2010.