You can laugh if you want to! ;-)
The "bouncing" technique did help me when I first started skiing powder, but it seems like it could be overdone and lead to bad technique.
Powder turns are nearly identical to pure carved turns on the groomed runs, the main exception being more of an even weight distribution between your feet.
As was said, you must allow your skis to arc around themselves; if you try to force them around with rotary it just won't happen and you will go down.
I keep my skis fairly close together, as if I am mogus skiing. This not only creates a platform under you, but also keeps both skis going in the same direction and avoids one diving down while the other one floats.
I try to weight my skis fairly evenly, like 60% outside 40% inside. I think about actually trying to ski on the outside edge of my inside ski, similar to (and per previous comments) monoskiing.
I don't sit back except in heavy deep snow (like over 3 feet). When it is deep even with fat skis your tips will dive sometimes unless you lean back a little. Especially when you transition from a steep to a flat there is always a deep pocket of powder in the transition and you have to sit back on your tails or you'll go over the handlebars.
I ski with my weight very neutral most of the time, with only a touch of pressure on the shins. When I start a new turn, I make sure that I have both of my feet pulled back under me to insure a good turn initiation.
I tend to ski with a break at the waist as I do when racing (but make sure not to squat and drop your hips back over your heels) and keep my stomach tight. I feel sort of compact, rather than standing tall in a "proud position".
But mostly skiing powder over 8" deep is the like best thing on Earth (besides the other thing you do rhythmically LOL) .. sking *in* something is so totally dreamy, with face shots coming up and choking you with light fluffy snow. And it is sooo cool to look up at your S shaped tracks and say to yourself "hey I did that" like it's your signature on the snow.
I'd be curious to hear what ski instructors think about this one. The main thing is a roughly equal weight distribution on both feet. Some people may find it easier to do this if they move their feet a *bit* closer together. You most certainly don't want to keep your feet pressed together.
>> Also there seemed to be an unloading of the skis that begin (or ended?) the next turn, or set one up for the next turn in powder... suspicious this is more pronounced on regular skis vs fattier skis..
When you are carving a powder turn, you skis are at their deepest point in the snow. The forces of the snow pushes against your skis. If you time it right and your turn is shaped properly, the force of the snow can be used to lift your skis out of the snow and into the next turn. It's similar to using the rebound energy on a groomed run turn to help start the next turn. On regular skis you sink deeper into the snow than with shaped skis, hence the forces are greater and the rebound out of the snow is greater.
On mid-fats and with enough speed, you don't need to have this sort of rebound out of the snow. I'll use a lot of rebound on my turns cause I like the sensation of sinking into the snow and popping out of it.
WRT what comprex says about not jamming a turn in powder, you can't jam a carved turn on the groomed either. Think about executing a pure carve. Since the snow is slowing down your forward speed, you be going slower than you would on the groomed for a turn of the same size. So I can see how someone may try to rush a turn.
This built-in speed control provided by the powder means you can ski steeper and tighter terrain (trees) than you normally would. If you are a powder newbie, one of the worst mistakes you can make is to try to ski a run that is too flat. You won't have any momentum and turning will be difficult.
Not a skiing instructor either. I'll be real curious to find out how right/wrong my perceptions are! This topic is more fun than helmet use and service problems!
Remember, no friends on a powder day.
Comprex asks:
Do you think of it as leaning back, or pulling up your toes? Guy Duquette had a very interesting article in Ski Presse last year about a sort of abdominal "scrunch" required to stay on top of the ski while letting it float. Sort of like a lemon being squeezed, exactly for the sort of transitions you speak of. He does emphasise that it is a dynamic thing, not a static posture, and he talks of toes up and forward.
Oh, Crush, is Birdmon on the list?
[This message has been edited by comprex (edited 01-21-2004).]
These are not the article I remember, but they're nice pix though. Click on the picture to view it in large format.
http://www.skipressworld.com/ca/fr/magazine/2003/Vol18No3/Hiver2004Vol18No0317.htm
http://www.skipressworld.com/ca/fr/magazine/2003/vol18no2/Pre-saison2003Vol18No0217.htm
[This message has been edited by comprex (edited 01-21-2004).]
Two things on this one. 1) The steep to flat transition 2) Hitting a deep pocket of powder.
1) When the terrain transitions abruply, you have to dynamically match your upper body to the direction of the slope. This seems to be the analog of anticipating a sudden drop-off and leaning forward prior to the drop-off.
2) When you hit deeper snow, your skis will slow down, and your upper body will tend to move forward of your feet. If your upper body is too far forward, your tips will drop too much into the snow. This seems to be a similar situation to entering a crud snow section from the groomed. For that case, I was taught to jet your feet forward slightly from your upper body to anticipate the increased drag.
I'm 6'1" tall. Seems like a lot of us posters are over 6 feet. I was instructed to slightly lower my center of gravity by bending by knees and lowering my hips. This helps mimimize the torque if my upper body gets too far forward.
comprex, I've also heard about the pulling up your toes tip, but I can't remember where.
I can see that this technique slightly modified for powder would be helpful. Perhaps for powder pushing the feet in closer together would add some surface area and help with float too. Likewise, a nice OPEN CARVE (non-jammed) it going to look and feel better, and remove any potential sliding & forced rotation .. which might work somewhat on groomed snow but would be death in powder I think.
To transition to the turn, it does seem that you unload slightly which perhaps becomes totally unconscious and fluid in the expert powder skier, but in the beginner the sensation of bouncing might be helpful (just a guess) to get you going ...
From what I have been told by folks that have done this for some time, the neutral weight over the ski is right vs sitting back. however, I am suspicious like all things athletic that there are no true hard and fast rules that cover every situation and much is done by feel, so there probably are sitations where sitting back a bit makes sense...
Unfortunately all my comments practically are not based on experience so take it for what's it worth!!! ;-)
The leaning back thing .... drop your hips back over your heels, lower your hips, be back on your tails , move your feet forward, curl your toes up .. whatever you want to call it it all ends up being the same thing body, wise ... as was said by JohnL it is like anticipating heavy snow ... I call it sitting back because I feel the backs of my boots (which use to freak me out) ... the idea is to get pressure off the shovel so your tips don't dive, and to move your center of mass back so when you encounter the resistance of the snow about your feet and ankles (and boy will you feel it it is like being lass roped sometimes) you don't get too far over your tips and have them dive and do a digger. The problem is if you get thrown to far forward by the deacceleration, it's a vicious cycle ... the more you get forward the more yout tips dive which makes you get even more too forward which makes your tips dive even more and ... WHAM! Powder Splash!
Mostly though it is a feeling of being kind of quiet with your body. The bouncing thing I don't recommend because it throws you around... that platform unweighting thing works at low speed on flat stuff but you'll end up killing yourself on the steep and deep.
And yes it is true because powder slows you down soooo much you can ski (and have to sometimes to keep up momentum) pretty much in the fall line on a 35-40 degree slope and still be going not too fast.
Good luck!
Oh and KevR said that he suspects it is not one single body position and he is soooo right.
Every second I am adjusting my balance when I powder ski and being adaptive ... that is the fun!
http://www.skimag.com/skimag/fall_line/article/0,12795,325926,00.html
Looks like a 'bout 45 degrees to me... Note that it does LOOK like his body is not tangent to the slope and he sitting back in the skis with the tips up a bit coming out of the turn...
At least that's what it looks like to me...!
It's all feeeeeeeeel!
Helps to learn when you are 3 too I bet.
;-)
Once again, that being true, I can see my tendency to stem chistie a turn works fine on groomed although perhaps NOT ideal, and that if I can advance to the technique of simply pointing both skis to initiate the turn, that this will improve both groomed skiing and powder skiing on my part.
It is the mental predilection to jam turns like each one is an emergency, and to be afraid of straight-line speed necessary for float, that I see as key to most folks' powder blocks.
The best thing I ever did for my powder skiing is spend half a day on a monoski. If you even _think_ of jamming a turn, you've just done a 180 back up the hill, promptly to fall over because your upper body hasn't caught up.
Ski fast softly. The rest is style and gear.
(Edited to say that I am not a SKI instructor either, just an inveterate powder, chute, bump and gear junkie).
[This message has been edited by comprex (edited 01-21-2004).]
Quote:Your last name wouldn't happen to start with "Bo", would it?
I'm an instructor ...
what a great time. Probably will be at Whitetail tommorrow with a few kids hoping the snow hits early there.
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It's a feel thing ...
<P>But mostly skiing powder over 8" deep is the like best thing on Earth (besides the other thing you do rhythmically LOL) .. sking *in* something is so totally dreamy, with face shots coming up and choking you with light fluffy snow. And it is sooo cool to look up at your S shaped tracks and say to yourself "hey I did that" like it's your signature on the snow.
, dropping back down , creeping back up to my hips 
, rolling off my belly 
and blowing in my face . Thanks bud, i'm addicted now.
but ski season's not over til they turn the lifts off .Quote:
Your too sexy for your ski's..too sexy for your ski's!! Dang Jimmi, I feel like I just read my 1st Ski Porn!!
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I have to say that the funniest thing was after I just met you guys you clicked in (you thought) your binding and your toes did not lock in and you went down on your back ... I looked over at you lying on the ground with a surprised look on your face and said WTF Jimmy are you f-ed up already lol!
That was a gas, man. Anytime. Anywhere!
, good reason to wear a helmet that was. Quote:
-- let the skis turn, don't force them around -- this is compared to groomer skiing where one can turn the skis forcably at will (only the truly strong powder skier can probably do this)
-- don't STEM or pick up the skis in any way in the turn, no wedging, tip or tail crossing, anything like that -- even for a millisecond or you will likely go down ...
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As for pushing the outside ski -- carving on hardpack responds well to really jamming the ball of foot on the outside ski thru the arc.
No idea if this would be helpful in powder.
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When I say powder, I mean above the knees... not a few inches, or several inches ... but deeper stuff.
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Next time you're out there, try pushing down on the uphill ski when you want to start turning. Just a little eensy bit, see if it does anything for ya, then m'be, jess m'be a bit more.
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KevR, I feel I should emphasise this distinction. I say nothing about inside or outside ski. I mean push the uphill ski in the direction gravity pulls (not down the slope but along a vertical) as you start the turn.
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The move is not a jam. To me it feels very much like pressure on bicycle pedals, one foot pressures down the other foot comes up, the two perfectly even as you cross the fall line.
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Let's keep the mental cue dirt simple: push down on the uphill ski.
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To translate into different terms, would this be the Inside Leg Extension often discussed on Epic?
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My mental cue is the opposite, relax and tip the downhill ski. I learned this at several X-Team Clinics (E-Ski), and it works/makes sense for me. I think it's different means to the same end.
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Dont know about boarding too much but as for skiing,
2) tail skiing is for gapers, learn weight distribution for and aft.
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Next time you're out there, try pushing down on the uphill ski when you want to start turning. Just a little eensy bit, see if it does anything for ya, then m'be, jess m'be a bit more.
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KevR, I feel I should emphasise this distinction. I say nothing about inside or outside ski. I mean push the uphill ski in the direction gravity pulls (not down the slope but along a vertical) as you start the turn.
To translate into different terms, would this be the Inside Leg Extension often discussed on Epic?
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The move is not a jam. To me it feels very much like pressure on bicycle pedals, one foot pressures down the other foot comes up, the two perfectly even as you cross the fall line.
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Let's keep the mental cue dirt simple: push down on the uphill ski.
My mental cue is the opposite, relax and tip the downhill ski. I learned this at several X-Team Clinics (E-Ski), and it works/makes sense for me. I think it's different means to the same end.
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Jimmy-yo PowPow is a three-pin tele-guy ... take it all with a grain-o-salt. The front foot of those tele guys are always pressuring the tail in pow ... and PowPow *did* do a few endos on his own video this year lol ... 'nuff said!
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Dont know about boarding too much but as for skiing,
2) tail skiing is for gapers, learn weight distribution for and aft.
YO POWPOW, tail skiing definitly not for pinners, weight goes back all fall down, all *you* gotta do is drop that knee, as for me sometimes i gotta feel the light touch of the back of my boot, sort like the back of somthin else i used to get when i was a kid, gives you discipline you know, you callin me a gaper?? and another thing, that dogfishhead, was that the 90 or 120, can't find anything but 60 up here, that stuff still for sale in your holler?
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thats a good call out on that one crush,
PowPow I did a few that scared me crazy like I was totally upside-down in about 3 feet of snow and it was freaking me out because I could not breath!! Talk about the mother of all endos!!!! Yeah it's that last 5% out of balance that is the killa!Quote:
I've never bought beer or alcohol over the internet, but I like the idea:
http://www.liquidsolutions.biz/main/ (click on their "Wall of Beer" and search for dogfishhead - they stock the 60 and 90 minute IPAs.
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When you hit deeper snow, your skis will slow down, and your upper body will tend to move forward of your feet. If your upper body is too far forward, your tips will drop too much into the snow. This seems to be a similar situation to entering a crud snow section from the groomed. For that case, I was taught to jet your feet forward slightly from your upper body to anticipate the increased drag.<P>I'm 6'1" tall. Seems like a lot of us posters are over 6 feet. I was instructed to slightly lower my center of gravity by bending by knees and lowering my hips. This helps mimimize the torque if my upper body gets too far forward. <P>comprex, I've also heard about the pulling up your toes tip, but I can't remember where.
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3. smile/hoot/holler as you realize that powder skiing is simply the greatest experience ever.
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"average" neutral balance on my skis (that means 50% of the time I am in the back seat, 50% of the time I am too far forward)
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.. In deep powder (knee to waist+ deep - not too common in the Mid-Atlantic), staying balanced is key, but the consequences of getting too far forward are a lot worse than the consequences of getting too far backward. ..
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ok this is amazing b/c now it has been 3 years since I first wrote about this subject. Have I revamped my statements in page 1? no! but.....
Over the last two years I find with a big mountain ski like my Dynastar Inspired By Nobis (gawd ... old school now ... 89 mm waist) on a 35-45 degree slope with 1-2 feet of powder I now pretty much attack with my feet fairly close together, 60/40 weight distribution, back rounded and compact stance w/ sight waist break, "average" neutral balance on my skis (that means 50% of the time I am in the back seat, 50% of the time I am too far forward), constant balance adjustment, goin' waaay too fast, turn size gs to super G (for me about 30-60 meters/yards radius), my grip on my poles as loose as I can, relax and stay loose, breath like you are lifting weights, look all the way down the fall line, stand tall tall tall on the turn transitions and keep arms wide and forward during for balance, try to keep ski tips even, stay with the rhythm, use a near-center-mounted ski (PocketRocket/Gun, Inspired, Scratch BC, Snoop, Mantra, etc) for even round flex. That's all i know.
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Any time I try to center myself with my shins in contact with the front of the boot and my toes curled up/ankles raised, it's a recipe for disaster!
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. Raising the toes/closing the ankle is the key to lifting the ski tips up to allow planing to happen. But this move is unfamiliar to many skiers.
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. Raising the toes/closing the ankle is the key to lifting the ski tips up to allow planing to happen. But this move is unfamiliar to many skiers.
Are you speaking of just closing the ankle, that can be practiced on the chairlift (if the pesky foot bar wasn't in the way) or compensatory movements higher up that cannot be?
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I mean flexing my ankles so that the front of my foot is raised - I guess the ankle itself really doesn't go up or down.
Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. Would these also apply to chopped up stuff (fresh, dense snow) or is that more properly described as crud or mashed potatoes? (That's what I broke my collarbone in - it may have been as I was initiating a turn, but I'm not sure).
Also, what adjustments would you make for Sierra Cement-type powder vs. light, fluffy Colorado/Utah snow?
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... Would these also apply to chopped up stuff (fresh, dense snow) or is that more properly described as crud or mashed potatoes? ..
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Sudden movements in heavy snow usually lead to sudden stops.
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hee hee hee dude ... my advice is..charge it and slam it ! yeeeaaaaaahhh. supersonic is best and rellllaaaaaaxxxxx.
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fire fire fire attack, sensuous feelie cream grooves two lines bucking ride ride push harder take it;
rock thrust hips center center tip dip again again dip - dip and here it comes , slow careful gentile through and press go go go again now now press and go again forward fire fire fire;
fire, buck sweaty bucks yes another here it comes shove and press and exit end end, now slowly grooves carefully thoughtfully - gentile slow and gentile and smooth and creamy and quiet quiet quiet.
still - again.
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Um -- what you are describing is exactly how I broke my collarbone.
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Sudden movements in heavy snow usually lead to sudden stops.
Sounds like that might have been my problem - are you saying that initiating a turn too aggressively in chopped up snow could cause the tips to dig in and launch you downhill? 'Cause I really got catapulted.
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Good question. Although I can't think of a likely sudden movement that would directly lead to the tips digging in, there any number of sudden movements (e.g. trying to force the skis into a new turn) that could cause a loss of momentum. That would cause the tips to start dropping which could quickly lead to submarining. With that caveat, the answer is "yes".
Quote:Hee, I just got this one rusty
Nice Doggie, down boy! oops - that is the problem isn't it?
.Quote:Quote:Quote:
Sudden movements in heavy snow usually lead to sudden stops.
Sounds like that might have been my problem - are you saying that initiating a turn too aggressively in chopped up snow could cause the tips to dig in and launch you downhill? 'Cause I really got catapulted.
Good question. Although I can't think of a likely sudden movement that would directly lead to the tips digging in, there any number of sudden movements (e.g. trying to force the skis into a new turn) that could cause a loss of momentum. That would cause the tips to start dropping which could quickly lead to submarining. With that caveat, the answer is "yes".
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well once i had a headlong toss on one of those blue runs at wt -- the dealeo was i was bombing the dang run and it just so happened that the extreme right of the trail, about 6 feet of it was just super soft snow -- while the rest was hard packed groom stuff
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The extreme right of trails like Snow Dancer and Limelight often are marked with "lollipops" (orange poles with orange circles on top) to mark the edge of where the snowmaking and the grooming go. With the installation of fixed snowmaking equipment, covering the far edge of some trails becomes a lot of work and not really necessary. While there is often snow covering the ground past the edge of what the lollipops are marking and there may even be tracks in that snow, there is no guaranteed base over there. When you've seen the size of the loose rocks on the slopes during the summer and the size of the water bars that may only be partially covered and you are over 30 years of age, you will begin to have second thoughts about chasing soft snow on the other side of the lollipops, especially if you are on your own gear.
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Is your water dam taped?
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.....but... Wouldn't he have his toes taped because his feet got wet?
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That's what I'm saying: the front buckle helps keep that seal watertight.
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Where did you get it replaced? I had a buckle bent and I can't force it back (it's the toe buckle which I rarely buckle anyway).
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