Hv fired up the guns this afternoon and has all the portables in the right place. Hopefully the weather cooperates.

I know!!!!!!!!!!! I saw them making it as i came up gardner road! hope fully they will open the slopes next weekend.

1 question. Does any body know if they started on the north summit snow making?

Yes - I rode thru the North Summit parking lot at about 11:45 AM today, and they were definitely blowing snow.

yeah i went out walking today and they were making some snow but they hadnt turned on the portables on tracker. also they didnt have some of the guns on yet but the wind was bad today on certain parts of the mountain.

I just looked at 7s and wisps web cams and HV is the only 1 making snow!

snow is in the forecast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just gotta get thru this rain today. It's pouring down here in the Burgh.

They fired up the guns again today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

7springs opening this weekend. Hidden Valley?

No Hv is not opening except the magic carpets on Sunday only for free ski school

Makes sense. There never is a whole lot of traffic at area resorts prior to Christmas (unless of course skiing is free). Opening up just for the sake of opening and not having guaranteed full coverage on the front side probably doesn't make sense.

I believe Mr. Baron over at 7S has personal financial incentives to get and keep 7S open (not sure if that's still the case under Moneybags Nutting).

Yeah its dispointing that not many people ski in December. Also I dont trust 7s snow. Its probably all ice!!!!!

This.

Every time I go there its icy as hell. Or toward the end of the day all of the powder is blown off of the layer of ice leaving solid ice patches.

I blame the stick guns....

It makes no sense to me that HV screwed their pass-holders out of one of the better weekends we're likely to have around here this season. I had a blast on the Barron Glacier and I'll be back today.

Honestly I couldnt agree more. Today is the kind of day that I would have called off work for and broke out the moose hat(Yes, I work Sun-Thurs). I also would have dropped money on some private lessons for the GF too, so I could ride while she was learning. (The money spent on lessons is worth not fighting all day if I was to teach her, IMHO)

Thank Hidden Valley Management for preventing us from one of the best weekends this season will see. (Now, where is that smiley with the middle finger...)


Yeah, I'm a little salty.....


P.S. While I'm at it, Bring back the viewer controlled web cam. WTF? that was the single best way to check snow conditions since HV refuses to do daily updates online of a snow report like any other resort in nation....HINT HINT Management!!!

Saying this Sunday was one of the best days we would have had this winter is a little over the top, I think. Unless the entire month of Feb 2010 has already slipped your mind.

Clearly! As a passholder, I would have liked to ski this Sunday but friends who went to 7S on Sunday told me it was extreme icey. And, with 12-18" of snow forecast over the next couple days (and maybe some more next weekend), I don't think we'll need to wait till February for a 'better' weekend!

(BTW, keep your eyes on HV website for a rumored, possible (no guarantees) upcoming 'free ski' day.)

Couldn't agree more Leo. Given that snow making didn't resume until late Tuesday, I believe, after a torrential rain on Monday, why rush things. I understand Winter weather is very unpredictable and relatively short in the Mid-A and pass holders want to get their money's worth, but HV did the right thing with the learn to ski/snowboard weekend. More good PR and putting the focus as being a true family oriented place. They'll probably have the whole resort open this weekend.

As a side note, anybody check out the new Glaciers pub?

My wife found this on Hidden Valley's Facebook page:


Hidden Valley Resort: ‎155 people took advantage of our Free Learn To Ski/Board Day and we received some great comments! We decided to continue to make snow so we could have a great opening day next weekend and once again offer our Free Ski/Board day on Sunday with two canned good donations. Check back tomorrow for details on opening day and our free ski day.
Sunday at 2:24pm

I called HV this morning and was told they are open 10 - 4 on Friday and lifts were running about $20.

All the Valley slopes s/b open but not the North Summit slopes.

I may take a ride up and check it out Friday. I haven't fallen down since last March.

I spoke to an HV Foundation employee today and they indicated that they had received over 20" of snow.

Hidden valley is having free skiing on sunday for the first 2000 people that register on their website and for those who dont register it is $20. As you can pretty much can guess from my user name i do have a pass at HV. Also I would have liked HV to have opened their slopes last weekend but id rather they take their time so the slopes arent icy or have bare spots like 7s. Also 7s HKD snow makers have been out dated 4 ever and need to be replaced. I also heard that 7s was icy but thats pretty comon. Also february was awsome!!!

just saw on facebook that HV is opening snowtubing on saturday :)Anybody know when summit slopes are opening?

Hope to see you all at the new Glacier's Pub on Saturday afternoon!

oops i ment january

Wow! today was sogy. I had to change my coat snowpants and gloves only after my 1st hour on the slopes!!!

Changed to snow by Noon. Heavy snow prdicted for the next 48 hours.

Ya i know but it was raining so hard then it changed to wet snow then rain again and then snow. But I had a good day.

HV again turned on the guns. Hopefully most of the terain wil be open this weekend.snow is in the forecast!!!:)

I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with the amount of natural snow and extended cold weather that Hv only mustered up 15 open slopes. Both 7 sp and wisp are nearly 100% open apparently they don't picture those resorts as their competition?

I know its apparent by now from my previous posts that I happen to like the new ownership at Hidden Valley, so I'll give my usual uninformed and biased opinion sticking up for HV.

Skiing season truly doesn't begin until December 26th in the Mid A. Conserving resources until after then probably makes financial sense. Buncher has dumped plenty of $$$$ into HV over the past 3 years and I'm certain they won't recoup that investment anytime soon.

And to be honest, there is no way HV can compete with 7S as far as the hill is concerned (quality of snow is a different story). I just looked at both web cams and both areas seem to be sparsely populated.

Be happy the Kettler Bros aren't there anymore.

We at 8 days away from the busiest week of the year I would think investing in snow would be a good thing for a ski resort to do. The lake will be frozen over by Tuesday and that will shut off the lake machine very early. If we get an early January thaw there may not be enough snow to make it through a period like that. My actual fear is that they have decided to bag the investment. No full time restaurants, no new slopes, not continuous snowmaking kind of points to that. We all know that real estate is where the money is in a ski resort and that market isn't great, but if building for the future you have to present a competitive or at least a different product. if you can't compete with terrain have more and better snow. As for real estate new 2 bed 2 bath condos on new slopes at 300k would sell and be below local market prices. Condos bordering a cess pool at 350k probably will never sell

Hey Jeff, no argument that it would be great if the whole place would be open; obviously I would want it open if I owned real estate or had a season pass. But as a very, very small business owner in this economy, I just want to hold serve right now. And I'm sure Buncher wants to do the same. They have pumped way more money into HV over the past 3 years than KB did in the previous 10. You could be looking at a "Laurel Mountain South" if it weren't for Buncher.

And they are different than 7S; it truly is a family atmosphere, not a frat house. If every attempt isn't made to get the whole mountain open by December 26th, I'll be right there with you carping. But until then, just relax.

I made it up on Sunday...like Dave, I'm an admitted HV fan. That was my first time out this year as my schedule has been busy with other things.

I just don't see how I could possibly complain about the conditions/status Sunday. On Dec 19 (plenty of years when skiing wasn't even an option then) the critical slopes -- Cobra, Imperial, Thunderbird (sorry I use the old names), etc -- were heavily covered and conditions were pretty much perfect. Fast yet somewhat soft such that it felt like no matter how aggressive I got there was no chance of losing an edge...there have been past years, esp. pre-Buncher, when we would go an entire season without seeing conditions like Sunday's.

They've rebuilt all the main lift houses and built a new beginner area.

And lastly, to Dave's point about keeping some powder dry, it really wasn't busy at all Sunday, mostly b/c the "average" person is busy at this time of year with other things. So why would HV go nuts with resources/output when the main runs they had open weren't crowded at all.

There is a farming saying, make hay when the sun shines the converse applies to ski resorts and some models are showing rain for the week between the holidays. Snow is there product. Would you go to lowes if they didn't have things in stock except certain weeks? Consumers make choices based on previous availabilty. As a business owner I try to have what ever is concieveable to be ordered at all times.

I think they have made strides but as a homeowner and season passholder. I booked my annual sales meeting elsewhere because they could not assure me the restaurants would even be open. I don't see how that will attract weddings and meetings in the future. That is what makes me wonder if they are changing their focus or having deeper financial concerns. As right as they did everything the first year their moves now are not accidental.

I have no dog in this fight but have to agree with Jeff.

The ski season is 90 days and my opinion is that a resort like HV needs to fully ramp up for all 90 days.

This is the quid pro quo for the real estate model---I will pay you big bucks for a ski in-ski out property if you will guarantee that I can, in fact, ski out.

Otherwise, taking the logic of peak times to its extreme, why not just open up for Xmas week, MLK, and Pres. day. This is when the resorts make most of their money anyway, at least thats what I have been told by SAM.

I agree. There have been many cut backs this year...no restuarants open full time, the ski shop was closed, minimal activities, etc. Maybe they emptied their deep pockets? Other observations:
- virtually no marketing with exception of the web site and e-mails
- minimal improvements; they tore down those old buildings and had to do something with the area...thus the new learn to ski area.

Maybe they are not making any money. Maybe this is why the Kettlers got out. Of course, they are in commercial real estate which has been especially hard hit during this recession which won't seem to let up.

On top of that, they cannot sell resort real estate in this market, especially with no marketing plan. Thus all they have to make money is a golf corse and a ski area.

They are supposed to be selling lots this Spring in the new "Tee Green" development. And they are selling all of the old "inn" rooms.

Iwouldn't be surprsed if they are not trying to unload the whole thing since it does not fit in with their business model. If the do not expand the ski area next Spring, I think we should start getting concerned.

I miss the food at th Hidden Valley Cafee. All Glaciers has is deep fried vien clogger food. Hopefully, The Clock Tower will offer some healthy alternatves. Looks like the Yukon is history...Another comment; why would you wait until now to post a notice about the New Years Party?

With the griping above, I am still an HV fan!

I am also a HV fan and wish them the best, but also agree that that things seem somewhat uncertain as to the commitment and where they plan ot go from here.

I was disappointed 2 weekends ago to see clocktower and yukon closed, while food in the cafateria was dreadful.

I spoke with someone in management who should very much be the know , and they said that Buncher is not yet saying anything with respect to their plans for the Outback expansion next year. He did say that was not a matter of if, but when.


I had posted my concerns some time ago, and am sticking with it: HV needs to get to critical mass. If they are basing decisions based on current levels of profitability of current investment, they will likely never get there. They need to move to the next level with more terrain, as well as some differentiation vs other resorts. (Exceptional food for example, better atmosphere, etc)

I do think hv is scaleinng back on winter operations but they just spent a lot of money. From what ive heard from HV employees the construction of the chairlift, snowmaking, and posibly lighting 4 the new terrain is going to start in the spring. So they are probably saving their money until they start buiding the expansion. Also Why dont they have sunday brunch in the winter?

Hey guys, step back to 2007 prior to the purchase and picture what it was like; chairlifts that barely passed inspection, crumbling infrastructure, horrible and antiquated snowmaking, a golf course when being called a cow pasture was considered a compliment, just to name some of the major issues.

Look at what you got 3 years later. And you're complaining? My, aren't we a spoiled bunch of crybabies. You could be me, a homeowner in Laurel Mountain Village wishing and hoping that that ski area will just open someday.

Why should Buncher be any different from every other corporation sitting on the sidelines with cash in hand waiting for this recession to end? They have invested so much with most likely little ROI. Do you know that just one TechnoAlpin cost $30,000? Count how many new ones have been added in the past couple of years and do the math. New groomers, a renovated golf course, etc. Would it be great if they had at least 1 restaurant open year round? Yep. But the economy isn't there. Look at how many restaurants have closed over the past 2 years. That business is a very tough go.

Look at the bright side, if it wasn't for them, property value at HV would have really, really tanked. Hopefully all of your issues will be resolved in the near future. A better economy and people spending money more freely would sure help. But until then, be happy with what you have got. I sure would.

I basically agree... compared to Kettler, Buncher is a dream come true. That said, it does not mean we cannot wine and complain about issues such as restuarants. My wife, and I would imagine that most women, will not eat the deep fried vien clogging bar food that the 'new' Glaciers Pub serves which replaced the paninnis, soup, salads, capucinno, etc that the HV Cafe served in the same space. The HV Cafe was very popular, why replace success with deep fried unhealthy food. And nothing similar is served in the ski lodge...more burgers, fries and hot dogs. I thought they were trying to class the place up a little. This is an example of going in the wrong direction.

I was just there Monday 12/20/10. Conditions were great with the exception of the bottom of the bottom of Continental. It was a bit icy. They were blowing snow into piles on several slopes all day. There were very few people there and it snowed most of the day. All in all it was a great first day out. The Clock Tower Resturant was still closed. I didn't make it over to the North Summit as I spent most of my time on rambler helping the GF, my friend and his GF. The it was the first time on a mountain the girls, and first time on a board for the guy. They took some lessons, then we ran Rambler for the rest of the day.

Over all, it went well. It was a great day to be out. Made it to Glaciers. Their is a looooong wait to get in the mug club.

I have not lost hope or confidence in Buncher and their plans. However with the economical climate the way it is, I under stand they want to hold back on some major projects. The removal of the artists renditions of the new lodge should have been a sign that other projects will be put on hold also. I do hope that they go ahead with the north summit expansion soon. They have been holding that in front of us like a carrot in front of a donkey for a while.

Don't get me wrong, believe that HV would be in far worse shape without Buncher and they have invested $$ in things such as snowmaking, the new maintenance facility, lift, etc.

However I nonetheless reserve the right to wine and complain in the true tradition of online blogs. Dispite their investment they seem to be missing the mark in some simple ways, such as the food quality, the erratic resturaunt status (both on the mountain and at the Outback site), marketing, etc. Much of this just takes thought and creativity, rather than the capital $ required for snowguns. I had hopes that they would do to the food operations what they did to the snowmaking operations, but does not seem to be the case.

Better than it used to be doesn't make it competitive in the market place. If your kid got f's and brought them to d's he is not a genius and will not be earning a scholarship. If the economy was that bad laurel mountain wouldn't be packed all of the time. It is about being a reliable and competitive product. That means snow and services. Take mad river mountain in Ohio they are a day resort and they know it. They were 100% open 10 days ago without altitude. Hv needs to decide what if anything it will be.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no doubt.

I guess my point is that one of the absolute, most critical things I am "buying" when I ski is conditions. And I think HV has the best in the area, hands down, thanks to the snowmaking system Buncher installed, which cost a lot. I ski other resorts, talk to employees at other resorts, etc...and I just can't come to any other conclusion. The snow at HV is consistently the best.

Would I love it if they more quickly expanded the resort? Sure. Could they be doing things better with the food? Yes. (I thought they hired the manager of Helen's at 7S...what happened with that)? But to me their focus appears to be on quality of skiing experience and family atmosphere and that's what I want.

To say the Kettler to Buncher transition is like a kid going from Fs to Ds is pretty far off the mark, IMHO.

I'll agree the staff and snow are excellent but only a high number of skiers and four season amenities will keep the doors open over the long term.

If you check the ski reports on this site for PA, not one is 100% open. I think HV is doing a decent job of getting t mountain open. Based on long range weather forecasts, it looks like their will be a thaw in January. They need to make enough snow to keep the core slopes open.
Once they build the prposed condo hotel at the base, it will change the way the whole resort operates. However, in this economy they will not be able to sell very many condos. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Log onto realtor.com and look up the real estate listings...there are close to 100 listings. Resort real estate is not moving. They bought HV to sell real estate and make money, not run a ski area. The ski area will eventually help them sell real estate.

Just for accuracy Liberty is 100% open as of today and Whitetail and Roundtop will be in the morning, and this at a lower elevation and latitude than other resorts in the state.

From what i saw yesterday it looks like 90-100% will be open this weekend. They were making snow and had some large mounds on jaguar and they were making snow on roadrunner and all of the closed slopes on summit.

Skied today for the 1st time all year at HV. If I had to grade the resort today, I would have to begrudgingly give HV a solid D- instead of D.

Reasons:

1) The snow was too white and too packed powdered instead of the ice that I so long to ski on.
2) The trails were groomed to resemble velvet.
3) The employee who greeted me when I arrived wore a smile.
4) The person I purchased a lift ticket from was too friendly.
5) The chair operators were too conversational.
6) Several people in the lift line said "After you" or "Thank you".
7) The Sierra Nevada I drank at the new Glaciers Pub was served at 38.2 F instead of my preferred 38.3 F.
8) The sun was too bright and too yellow when it came it out in the afternoon.

What a horrible day !@#$%&

Yes Dave, what a terrible day. The snow was too soft, the lifts made short work out of the crowds, people were smiling and all the employees were friendly and seemed to be content if not actually happy. What a shame. I miss rude, indifferent customer service and all the ice and rocks.

HV has come a long way. I wouldn't ski there in the last years when Ketlers owned the place. Buncher may not have gotten everything done that they said but given the economy I think they've done an outstanding job.

I like the new space for Glaciers Pub, lots of room with a view of the slopes. But yes Dave, the Pale Ale was too cold. I like it European warm, 50 degrees or so. I give them a low marks for too cold brew.

I'll agree conditions were very nice today but that is the job of the resort to make people happy. Feedback is what makes things better. Maybe you are the type of person that is content with mediocrity but I am not.

Sounds like You've given 7 Springs a permanent A+ based on that criteria.

Perhaps you should stop wasting your time in the Mid-Atlantic. The slopes were in mid-season form. Oh yes there was some icy spots. All the touted natural snow still left the glades scratchy. This is the Mid-Atlantic after all. If you can't see the improvement between now and then, you must not have been around then or you were a whole lot more accepting of truly bad.

Yes you would think that the job of a resort is to provide a product and service that makes people happy. So HV is mediocre because they met that goal? How many resorts fail to met that minimum goal?

Oh yes, HV was mediocre compared to any Western ski resort when it comes to conditions. I'll be at 7S tomorrow and I'll compare surfaces. As for resort amenities well, the only ones I care about deal with snow conditions.

As for feedback, I could complain about the lack of expert terrain and vertical but what would that do? I could suggest that they open more glades for challenge but it still would not draw significant amount of expert skiers.

HV is an excellent family hill that makes the most of what they have. I would think and hope that when the economy improves and the second home market picks up all the niceties that are now lacking will be provided. It doesn't make business sense to provide for year round fine dining if there is no market for it.

jeff, I think I understand that as a home owner there you expect a lot more from management. Keep up the heat, that is your right. I can't help but think that Buncher hasn't begun to recoup the investment they made in resort infrastructure. How would you feel if Buncher executed their entire master plan regardless of economic conditions then went bankrupt because they couldn't retire their debt and meet operating expenses?

Believe that labeling as mediocre is unwarrented, and agree by western standards ALL midatlantic resorts can be considered mediocre. HV's snow making system and grooming is likely the best, or among the best in the midatlantic.

On the other hand, I agree with Jeff that feedback is what makes things better, and to shut out feedback and suggest that we should just be happy because the prior ownership was letting the place rot is also unwarrented. If Buncher is waiting to recoup current investment based on current resort status or for the 2nd home market to improve, we may all be in for a long wait. They need to get to critical mass to stay in the game.

When LHC says that It does not make sense to provide year round fine dining if there is no market for it, I disagree. One only needs to visit the thriving Out of the Fire Cafe down the road to see a market for year round fine dining. 1 mile in the other direction Laurel Mtn Inn has a thriving business based on less than fine food but at good prices. As far as I am concerned, HV has never provided the right formula for year round dining on a consistant basis, so for them or anyone to come to any conclusion about there being "no market", or to just happy because the place was in such a state of disrepair before is missing the point. HV food attempts have missed on quality or price, and that is why they have no market.

It may seem overly critical or "not focused on the snow", but believe that good food service is one of the things that can set the tone for a resort far beyond an extra snow gun or 2, which in turn makes the resort more desirable from a vacation home perspective, etc to get to critical mass as a destination resort. Going back through the HV you will see many other such criticisms/suggestions being offered, of how HV could make things better. One that comes to mind skier services building at base of the north slope. Here was a great opportunity with very visible location to make for a neat rustic coffee-house style of building that would make you feel like are at a resort, but instead they built a block structure with the ambience of a Sheetz. Granted it is better than the pennsyltucky trailer it replaced, but it is still mediocre in it's own way and misses the mark.

There are other examples, but my point is that while Buncher has spent $$ in big capital projects (which were big improvements), they have underinvested in some reletively low cost areas that require creativity, but that can take the resort to the next level.

My point is they will have to improve to meet operating expenses and expand. The must be a reliable resort to sell real estate it is that simple. There is a very successful Model to follow it is four season reliability like 7S, Snowshoe, and Wisp.

Fair enough, Edgar3, I see your point. I didn't mean that we should just be happy with HV because of the improvements over the last owners. I'm taking exception to the idea that the product offered is mediocre. Maybe you're right about the dining aspect in the long run. I'll concede that "no market' is a sweeping generalization. Perhaps I should say depressed market or saturated market. That isn't really an issue with me but I know it is with a lot of resort goers so fire away and let it be known.

As for the Laurel Mountain Inn, I always thought of the place a locals spot, easy to get to and typical PA dining, big portions of average food and reasonable prices but that's not what I hear folks want at HV. As for Out of the Fire Cafe, never been there but heard nice things about the place. Where is it?

I don't know what HV's return on their investment has been. I don't know if the model was built on skier visits or condo/home sales. You are right about critical mass though but my guess is the timing is wrong.

We all want Hidden Valley to be successful but it is a fair question to ask whether the new owners are making the right decisions and spending money in the right areas. I think that Edgar and Jeffo4 have some very valid points.

Are the new owners creating a niche or are they trying to compete directly with other mid-Atlantic resorts? I am personally confused on their focus. It doesn't appear that they are creating their own niche. They are not catering to the finer elements, not pursuing a water park, gambling facilities, or other attributes that can define them, etc. I am sure as a group we can come up with several ideas that can separate them from the pack. Does spending all that money on new snow blowers bring the masses? Are there other areas where they could have spent or concentrated on....like along Rt31 and the North Summit base (areas of high visibility). Build a village, support with unique shops, residential, restaurants...do it well and people will come and then focus on snow conditions.

If they have decided to compete directly with other mid-Atlantic resorts, than from what I have seen and experienced, I am concerned. I was at Hidden Valley in mid January last year and they didn't have all the trails open. They left no slopes ungroomed....no bumps. Half pipe was not open. I was bored after five runs. Although, Hidden Valley doesn't have the steeps, there was no effort to provide areas of man made challenges. From all accounts this year, they seemed slow to get all runs open with great weather conditions. If you are going to go head to head and be successful, you have to do a better job. If your going to build skier services building, build it with some character.

For me its as simple as just driving into the 7 Springs entrance where you are greeted with a beautiful stone water wheel house and beautiful landscaping during the summer. You drive through Hidden Valley and you still get this deserted feel. So at the most simplistic level, Hidden Valley seems to still be missing something. For me its still missing that pull, that "I want to go there" that character, that this is a great place to be, that scenery, that great restaurant, the great event, concerts, challenge, and most important.....that I want to buy a vacation home.

I am not suggesting that these are the only answers, only suggesting that there is a debate on whether the decisions and investments being made are the right choices or are we going down the same road that caused Hidden Valley to have some dark years.

I would have 2 agree. What is HVs focus? the truth is IDK, but they do need to get more runs open faster or they will lose profits. It should not take them a month 2 open 90% of their trails. Also whats the big deal on the services building? It looks fine as it is. Why do you miss the ugly roting trailer and the port-a-poties?

Hey Frederick3. Welcome. You have eloquently stated what you feel are issues and misplaced resource allocation at Hidden Valley. The previous owners left HV in complete disrepair, even to the point where many felt the ski area was in danger of not reopening. Just after purchasing Hidden Valley, Buncher made a decision that a total makeover of the ski area was needed to attract skiers back; as a matter of fact, prior to the change in ownership, I heard that several Hidden Valley home owners would go to Seven Springs to ski because the ski area was so bad. So Buncher decided to invest in new snowmaking, groomers, building renovation & demolition.

Obviously some of the options you, Jeff and Edgar present would enhance the Hidden Valley experience. One thing the can not change is the terrain. Laurel Hill Crazie and I were discussing how great Cobra and Imperial would be if only it had twice as much vertical. But sadly, that can't be changed. However, they did leave their somewhat challenging areas "bump up" last year; underneath the quad on the North Summit, as well as Thunderbird and Firebird. Opening up and developing the area adjacent to RT 31 would hopefully be the next step and create a buzz, not to mention you could actually see the ski area from Rt 31 which might attract casual passers by. I'm not sure how much more challenge that would add. I'll let those who have hiked up there make comments on that.

With regards to the dining experience (or lack thereof), Laurel Mountain Inn is a local yocal grub n pub. Out of the Fire Café in Donegal is busy on weekends and caters to the higher end eater. Also, Out Of the Fire draws customers from Hidden Valley, Seven Springs and all of Westmoreland County due to its proximity to the PA Turnpike. However, I have been there on a couple of weekdays where my wife and I were the only two people being served dinner. I'd be curious to find out what the volume at Helen's is at Seven Springs during the off season. Is there a niche for high end restaurant at Hidden Valley? Maybe.

I agree there are definitely some other ways to attract people there in the off season. I think a water park is a great idea (not sure what happened to the planned water park at Seven Springs). The ideal location is along RT 31. I don't think bringing slots and gaming is a good idea, especially given their focus on a family oriented area. More summertime activities, events, concerts? Sounds great. I would love to see a weekend jazz festival and/or a folk festival.

Buncher originally proposed spending $1 billion there over a 30 year period. I would bet that's somewhat on hold right now. But here is a link to an article detailing their plans

http://tribune-democrat.com/homepage/x51...eadpicturestory

I do not accept mediocrity, but I do accept reality. The economy currently stinks, plain and simple. Even a company such as Buncher has limited resources. Did they misplace their spending? That's subjective. I think they welcome constructive criticism. But to say what they offer is mediocre is borderline ludicrous. There is always room to improve, but they have accomplished a great deal in a short time. I suspect when the economy improves, more of the suggestions that have been presented will be considered and implemented.

Yes, welcome to the thread Frederick3! Agree with your well writtten comments and believe we are on the same page. Also, HV Homeowner's comments resonate; What is the FOCUS?

Per HockeyDave, the initial focus to get the skiing back into shape made sense, and in some respects had to be done to make up for what had not been done in the years before. Snowmaking, new lift, and general maintenance all done very well by Buncher. The question is if this will be enough to have a sustainable business? I see several problems:
- 7S is so close and has much more extensive terrain and infrastructure. HV would have to expand considerably to compete head to head, and just doesn't have the mountain to do it.
- Unlike the Snotime resorts, HV really isn't a day ski area for metro areas beyond Pittsburgh. 7S has hotel, resturaunts, activities to function as destination resort, and thus has many more revenue streams than ski and golf passes, while also being a day ski option for Pittsburgh.
- There are no shortage of resorts in the neighborhood. One has to wonder how sustainable Berkley Springs and Nemocolin are. Although they don't offer skiing worth mentioning, they are competitors during the other seasons especially for golf and spa.

So basically HV is stuck in the middle, with out the infrastructure to be a destination resort, but not located well as a day resort.

I believe that the Waterpark option wold not be viable. From what I can tell, 7S dropped thier plans. Also, at one time there was an investor looking to build a park at the Somerset Turnpike exit which has also gone silent. Update to current: Great Wolf Lodge is building a park in Pittsburgh, and will be a category killer, setting the standard for waterparks in western PA. It is a shame that somehow Buncher and Great Wolf didn't get together to do something at HV as a destintion resort, since that would have been the ticket. But at this point, with the high cost to build and maintain a waterpark, Great Wolf to compete with, and Idlewild with a seasonal park 20min away, I just don't see it.

So what options remain? Believe it comes down to real estate, and differentiating the resort to make it attractive to 2nd home buyers. Consider how Deer Valley and Beaver Creek have positioned themselves which makes real estate very desirable, even with other resorts close by. Impeccible grooming, Great Food (even in the cafateria), architectural detal, etc all contribute to their quality image. Granted HV does not have the mountain and conditions of those resorts, but what HV does have which they do not is driving distance from many affluent metro areas. There is no mid-atlantic resort that has assumed this role. Things like excellent food and a true resort atmosphere appeal to 2nd home buyers, some who might not even ski. These things don't necessarily even have to cost lots of S$ up front like a waterpark, but they do require some creativity or partnerships to pull off.

Finishing the outback slopes would also put them on the map for skiers, and increase visibility to Rt31. If they could just capture more 7S visitors to come over to HV they could be sucessful.

BTW, Laurel Hill Crazie: Out of the Fire cafe is in Donegal on the left side of rt 31 (coming from HV), before the turnpike.

I love HV. It was the first mountain I was ever on. I spent alot of time there in recent years both as a patron and an employee (not a disgruntled one either, I left by my own accord as I now have a younkin around). I was a low level employee, was happy being there and truly enjoyed my time there. It wasnt my primary income, just something to do and because of that I had a blast. I mention this because some of what I am gonna say is abrasive and I don't want it to get brushed off as "the ramblings of some disgruntled employee who got passed up for a promotion."

Everyone has already stated the issues and for the most part I agree. Most of the blame is laid on Buncher for the issues at HV. Sure, Buncher is the "Rich Uncle" to the resort, providing it with the $$ for capital improvements. Buncher does not run the day to day operations of the resort. That's what they hired Scott Bender and his associates for. Up to and including the quality (or lack thereof) of the food, prices, staffing, operations, where the $$ for capitol improvements is spent and what projects will be tackled next.

It should be obvious by walking around and looking at how many people are on the slopes that HV is no where near making a profit or breaking even. Unless HV management (Bender) makes some big changes to daily operations, and get a clear long term vision, I fear the rich uncle will get tired flushing money down the drain. I have said it before, and I will say it again, I dont think Bender was the right guy for the job. He was not hired based on his past performance or reputation. I mean he was basically fired from Springs. It appears he has an in with a higher up in Buncher and can pretty much run the resort with immunity.

Think about it, how long would a manger last at any resort when they cant even staff a resort so that all of the amenities are up and running for the official opening day? Its not like it was a soft opening, it was a week past the official opening of the 2010/11 ski season and the resort wasn't even properly staffed. Maybe its just me, but that is unacceptable and Buncher should be ashamed of gross mismanagement that is taking place.

It seems that Buncher is turning a blind eye to HV management and letting them do what ever they want with no repercussions for their (in)actions. While at the same time, HV management is deaf to its patrons and blind to any wrong doing or any areas that need improvement. I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that improvements have slowed since Scott Bender was brought in. Sure some capital improvements have been done that were planned well before his arrival, i.e the new lifts, snow making, demolition of the old building (it was damn near falling down). etc. But if you focus on the day to day operations, not much has improved with the current management at the helm. I hope Buncher sees this and puts personal favors aside and starts making business decisions based the success of the resort prior to it being run into the ground...again. The one big thing I blame Buncher for is not acting in the best interest of the resort regarding day to day operations by its management. I'm sure some in Buncher want to dump HV and unless it gets turned around, it might be a wise business decision...

All that being said, I will still continue to go to HV. It was my first and will always hold a place in my heart. I look forward to getting the little one on the slopes 2011/2012 at HV and one day being a homeowner myself.

Some follow up to some of the issues being raised:

1. I still won't complain about the progress being made at HV, but I will say that I was surprised by some of the bare spots that were already appearing this past Friday. Now looking at the long range forecast it looks like they'll "get away with it" but if it had stayed warmer for even a few more days they most likely would have been closing multiple slopes. Which isn't good. So again, while I won't complain, some of the comments questioning the amount of snow making had some merit. Last winter and so far more or less this winter have been cold, but a few years ago a multiple week warm up at some point in Jan would not have been all that uncommon.

2. I have to think Buncher was happy with this Holiday season. I was there Friday and that's about as crowded as I can remember the slopes being in a long time. I heard that Wednesday of that week was similar as well. In addition, and perhaps more importantly, the "resort" was crowded...homes, condos, restaurants, etc.

My kids and I went up to HV on Wed night. The crowds thinned out around 4 - 5. Ended up being a nice night. Kids and I really enjoy HV. It's just a nice, mellow and affordable place.

We went to 7S on Thu for the afternoon session since we had some 50% off vouchers recommended by someone here. The drizzle stopped as soon as we got there. 7S was packed on the front face but the north face was OK. That turned out to be a great day for us.

I'm no prude by any stretch but I was disgusted to see all the empty beer cans + litter below the North Pole Lift at 7S. Too bad some people are that way.

Speaking from experience, I really feel for the home owners of resort areas. Most have a lot of money tied up in vacation homes. They can become a real money pit. As long the resorts are well maintained and "moving forward", owners can at least justify the costs of ownership with the benefits of amenities.

I hope that HV continues to improve and expand for the sake of those of you that own there as well as those of us (including myself) who enjoy visiting. We hope to make it up to HV this weekend again.

My two cents worth on all of everyone's points:

Day or destination resort? >> HV is closer to Pittsburgh than Liberty, Roundtop or Whitetail is to Balto./Washington. It can be both with the extensive resort community and short commute to the Burgh.

Snowmaking - they opened almost the entire mountain by Christmas. Not bad. They need to keep Roadrunner open...the best trail on the mountain.

Waterpark - puullleeease! keep the tackyness at 7S.

Restuarants - what happened to the soups and panninis at the former Cafe. Glaciers has deep fried junk food and...frozen pizza!! A resident explained the issues with success of HV restuarnats. Almost all of the lodging is condos with kitchens. You need hotel rooms to supply patrons to the restuarant. Or offer something unique such as brick oven pizza,flat breads, good italian food, sushi, etc. You can buy the standard fare at the Clocktower at any reatuarant orr cook it in your condo kitchen.

Business is Good - the Holiday season maybe one of the most successful for HV in many years. The place was hoppin', eateries were busy, good lift ticket sales.

Marketing and Identity - HV needs to establish a marketing plan to sell real estate. People who buy real estate at resorts are not just buying real estate, they are buying a LIFESTYLE. Everyone likes the family atmsophere at HV...thats the identity they need to market, similar to Smugglers Notch in Vermont. Combine family with the amenities and you have a marketing identity.

Money Spent - the Bunchers have spent a BUNDLE. 85 new Italian made snow guns, a top notch maintenance facility probably costing at least $4.0 mil, miles of new steel snow making piping, a new snow making pumping station, resoration of the decrepit ski lodge, an new $1.0 million fire house for Bakersville, restoration of the golf course, several miles of new sewer lines and a sewage pump station along Rte 31 (which is useless to Buncher at thiss time), new quad chair lift, replace all the chairs on the 2 triple lifts, two new Italian loading carpets, new grooming machines, repaint all the lifts, new lighting on most of the slopes, snow making added to Roadrunner, completely new ski rental equipment, new carpet type lift for the snow tubing area, new learn to ski area, clear and grade future Outback slopes , etc.

HOW CAN YOU WINERS COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS LEVEWL OF INVESTMENT? I WOULD GUESS THAT GIVEN THE REPORTED PURCHASE PRICE OF $12 MIL AND THE INVESTMEWNTS LISTED ABOVE, THEY HAVE SPENT CLOSE TO $20 MIL.

Well if you do the math. The plan was to invest $1 billion at the current rate that would be 50 years. It is nice that people are happy with the improvements, as am I. However making money and attracting a future customer base that can afford to pay cash for second homes is paramount.

Some speak of a bad economy that is relative to your industry. Good real estate always sells. Not overpriced or poorly featured real estate. These cash buyers don't care if it's better than it was they want to buy a current viable product not a dream. If they had new condos on the new slopes I would be first in line to buy one. I spend at least $500 a weekend on food, drink and classes for my children. They need 2000 families like mine to be there every weekend.


The family atmosphere and service from ski specific employees is in place. Had they made 12" more snow on all slopes during one of the coldest Decembers on record, discussion of bare spots and closed slopes would have been put to rest. They spent the money on the guns but didn't spend the extra money for 48 hours more of snow making?

The restaurants still need work we had a reservation for a party of 12. We arrived 10 min early our table wasn't ready and our party had to sit at two tables. In addition it took over 45 minutes to get our first drink, which we purchased at the bar and brought to the table. The food was fine but the experience took 2:50. That is not acceptable for a normal meal.

Hopefully they can work on these items to improve, if not it will probably be sold or the real-estate will become just some nice cooler weather investment which has some value as well. I will keep spending my money there and giving suggestions to staff in a hope they catch on.

For those who have speculated that buncher is out of money. I think not they spent $30 million in the strip district last month so this may just be poor resort management. I'm not sure if that is the case because of some of the high quality employees the have kept ( I.e. Ski shop & children's activity director)
Only time will tell.

I think the thread has drifted a little. First and foremost it was about blowing snow. I do not think the negative comments here are about the level of investment, but the level of service.

A $30,000 snow gun costs the same whether you fire it up or not. So why is Hidden Valley not 100% open when resorts 2,000 feet lower are?? IMHO this is a commitment to snowmaking, and you see this same issue with BK, TL and CV.

But since the thread has drifted, I think the most sage point here is that HV is stuck in the donut hole. Viewing myself as the DC consumer, there are really just a few resorts to consider for a weekend: In VA, WTG and the Nut, in PA, HV and 7S, MD has Wisp and in WV CV/TL and SS. These are HV's competition with the possible addition of Holiday Valley in NY for those to the west. To me the Poconos are a different market and if I am going to drive that far north, I will keep driving.

Obviously, HV can't really compete on terrain alone, but no one here is complaining about that. HV can't compete with SS, 7S and WTG on facilities at this time, and CV/TL on snow potential and terrain. Perhaps the best comparisons are Wisp and the Nut. The Nut went with the water park option and I am not suggesting that, but IMO Wisp clearly has the snowmaking commitment and this offsets issues with the facilities and customer service.

So use the assets you have.

So I am planning a local FAMILY trip for Pres. Day Weekend. Where to go? How about HV? Hmmmmm HV is not 100% open yet. Will they make snow in late Feb. or let the base rot away into FG or LG? Lets take a look at online reviews such as trip advisor----oh wait poor lodging reviews. Bad food reviews here on DC Ski.

I will have already been to Wisp, TL and Elk. SS or 7S on a holiday----Not! Think I'll do a second trip to CV/TL and hope for a dump and spend more time at Chips. Or perhaps WTG but wait I think I'll look at those Nut water park pics on line. I can't remember whether they have an indoor surfing wave or not? That could be kinda cool when I get bored or tired of the holiday lift lines.