Question to the parents out there:

How old do you think your kids ought to be before they can do a whole run (lift and all) completely on their own?

My son (whose age I'm not disclosing in this post) has skied 5 times now, and has gotten very good at getting on lifts and staying in control down the hill on the greens. Still, I feel like I need to dump him in a class lesson whenever I want to take a few runs down a more advanced slope without him.

Thanks.

I'm not a parent but I'll answer anyway.

In the first place it would be ideal if your son had a friend or another person to ski with who isn't you.

If that's not possible, and your son is open to skiing alone... and you trust that he'll stick on the greens... it seems it should be cool if he's about 7 or above? The chair-lift attendants will watch out for him and if gets in trouble on the slopes, people will help out.

You'd want him to carry a cell phone and have a set meeting time/place when you two would reconvene.

This age thing is just a suggestion; I think it depends more on a kid's personality.

This is not aimed towards you at all, but is my opinion on this topic. I am not a parent, but as someone who has worked in the ski industry, on snow, for the last 15 years, I'd say it is not an age thing as much as it is a responsibility and knowledge thing. I see lots of adults that should not be skiing alone. It is amazing how people treat mountains like giant amusement rides...take the lift to the top and ride the ride down with no personal responsibility. Over the years I have seen numbers of people struck by out of control skiers and skiers who don't read or ignore signage putting themselves and every one around them in danger. I know several people who have been seriously injured by out of control skiers. daily I see people of all ages ignore the responsibility code and blow through signs, a few years ago I helped work a scene where a teenager struck a tree and died...it's more than a matter of age or if you are this tall you can ride the ride kinda of thing or have a buddy so the stranger doesn't grab ya...anybody who is on the mountain and responsible for themselves should fully know and understand the responsibility code, know how to read and follow signage on the mountain, know the inherent dangers to themselves and others, etc...if a child is old enough to responsibly, safely play alone then it might be a good idea for the parent to go to ski school and request a lesson on mountain responsibility and safety as well as seeing if the child is capable of skiing alone, IMO the vast majority of parents and the general public need the same lesson. Ask anyone in the ski industry who works on snow and they will agree, for sure.

Here is a simple test to do in one part of the mountain. Go to the terrain park on a busy day and read the saftey signage that is posted at the entrance. Then stand there for 10 mins watching how many parents blow by the sign with their small kids into the park and then proceed to break every safety rule with their kids beside them...then later in the day watch as there kids hang out in the park by themselves putting themselves and every on around them in danger. It's the norm.

It also depends on where and when you are skiing. On Saturday at Timberline there were out of control skiers everywhere and Ski Patrol refuses to be proactive in stopping these individuals. I personally saw several collisions that resulted in injuries. I would never let a child that wasn't extremely aware of other skiers ski alone on such a day.

On the other hand, Monday at Timberline was fantastic. Incredible snow conditions and almost no one there. On that kind of day I would be much more lenient in letting my child ski alone.

Tucker is right on the money with his take. I was a parent to a racer when he was growing up. I made sure he learned that making turns was much more important than the idiots we see doing figure 11s down a trail. Personally, I wanted him skiing with friends if not with me for obvious reasons. If you ski long enough, you will be involved in some type of skier/snowboarder collision, regardless of age, size or ability. Having someone around is important. Also, mountains which funnel to a common point are better than ones like snowshoe where trails spread out to many different lifts and locations covering a mile or two where a child can get lost.

Earlier in the year was creamed by a snowboarder who yelled "dude! you skied into my line!" after I skied around some folks standing in the trail. He hit me from behind and got the worst of it, but it's the attitude that you are in their way and tough s#^! if you get hurt. If I had been a small child, I would have suffered serious injuries. Please consider the conditions, crowds, and mountain before letting your kids go off on their own.

The risks you guys (Tucker and TomH) are describing are there for both children and adults. Even if a mother is by her kid's side skiing, she has no control over reckless and ignorant skiers, negligent ski patrols, etc.

I'm not saying a mother shouldn't be careful and wary. But I think living in fear and not letting kids have some freedom on the slopes is also a mistake.

I remember skiing without my parents all the time as a kid. Probably from age 6 or 7-plus. Mostly I was with friends my age, but I do remember some times alone when I was under 10. It was fun.

Wow...so many good quotes in this thread. My daughter learned to ski before I did and was quickly accessing the trails alone at age 10. She had lessons as needed and the instructors always stressed safety, and I made sure they did. Now we have the pleasure of skiing together.

When she was 11 she had the run of Deer Valley and Stowe and we just picked a rendevous point where she always shows up on time. To me the rendevous time thing is critical. If the child can be trusted to show up at a certain point at a certain time he or she is good to go. Being careless with the time and cellphone would cause worry on the parental side and a be a signal that the child is not ready.

Since my daughter is a bit of a loner this is nothing for her. Since she is also a bit of a drama queen, I know that she woudl not hesitate to ask for directions or help from Ski Patrol.

taupecat this is a decision only you can make but you need help knowing how to make it? Being able to load/unload the lift is not an issue for your son. The responsiblity code says that the uphill skier should yield/avoid the downhill skier; it also says to stop in a place where you are visible and to yield to uphill traffic when entering the slope. Not one of these responsibilites is less important than the other.

My suggestion is instead of putting him in a group lesson so you can go ski, put him in a private lesson and tell the instructor you'd like to be able to let him ski appropriate terrain on his own and ask him/her to focus on "traffic management". We can make some fun out of it, show them where the red and yellow lights are, how to pick good places to stop for a break, maybe even expand what terrain is appropriate.

AMEN!!!

Unfortunately, I have heard this from a lot of folks, I know a lot of folks have passed concerns along about this exact issue to the powers that be but still seems as though it needs to be heard more from folks/customers directly? Wouldn't think it is a staffing issue, seems as thoug there would be a bunch of nationals around on the weekends when its busy..but I don't know for sure because I avoid the place on the weekends because it is to crowded with out of control skiers/boarders... I heard a couple patrollers were standing at the bottom of lightning for a little bit a few weeks ago and it made a huge difference.

TomH, what would you suggest the patrol do to be more proactive here? That's a serious question, not an attack. I personally feel that the patrol at Timberline does a pretty good job. Unfortunately, they can't be everywhere all the time, especially on a busy holiday weekend. Maybe my view is skewed because I'm a patroller. Hell, I was almost hit several times this weekend working incidents with patrollers directing traffic above me.

Tucker is correct. People treat the hill like an amusement park, no chance they will get hurt or hurt someone else. No personal reponsibility or recognition of the skiers code for the vast majority. In my opinion its because most of our patrons weren't raised in a ski culture and can't be bothered to learn about it for the 2 days a year they visit the hill.

That being said, there are quite a few little kids out there by themselves that do just fine. If they are mature enough and have been taught how to keep safe on the hill, age is mostly not an issue.

They were... I was standing there too, but they can only do but so much. I don't think folks go into patol to be cops, although some of them... anyway, that's another topic for another thread.

That's a very true point. There's not a single day of training pertaining to rule enforcement when you go through NSP courses. I don't like being a cop, but I hate seeing someone get hurt worse. Its a necessary evil.

Its a difficult situation. If you pull every ticket of every person you believe to be out of control, your going to upset a LOT of people. Those same people will most likely complain and generally, businesses do not enjoy complaining customers. Is that a reason not to pull tickets? No. But there does have to be some balance.

I think the word proactive is key here. Taking turns/posting someone at the major intersection/problem spots for half an hour at at time. Bottom of lightning, s-turn, heavy merge areas, big slowdown areas where black trails go into green,etc, blah, blah, blah. Don't have to have a lifeguard stand there but if people took turns standing at these spots throughout the day and stopping folks who were out of control, pullin' tickets for folks who can't make a turn and figure 11 through slow areas it would make a huge difference. Maybe this only needs to be done for an hour in the morning and an hour after lunch on some days to be effective, maybe it needs to be done for 2 shifts in the morning and afternoon on busier days. HOw many red jackets are sitting at the top of the mountain at any given time waiting for incidents...seems like some of them could be out taking turns w/ crowd control patrolling...but I could be wrong, I don't know. Just an observation.

As far as pulling tickets that doesn't have to happen all the time. Simply having someone stand there will do it most of the time. It's kind of like the sheriff's car that they park on front street in Davis. There is never anyone in the car, so obviously no tickets are given...but the site of the car sure does slow folks down.

That is crazy...the name of the job is ski patrol...the job she be proactive as well as reactive

I agree Tucker. And you are probably correct about just needing a couple hours after the first lessons get out and after lunch.

I like the Ski Patrol as well and think they generally do a great job. I commend anyone that does that job because I know no one is getting rich doing it.

But, since you asked I think they are weak in controlling out of control skiers. If I ran the place I would have the Ski Patrol actively mark and cut passes of out of control skiers. For instance, during the past weekend it would have been quite easy to achieve that as follows:

Every time they go down a run I would instruct them to do as follows:

1) Salamander - stop at Governors corner for 30 secs and look for out of control skiers (lfoocs) then stop at merge with lower White Lightening and lfoocs.

2) White Lightening - stop at flats and lfoocs.

3) Dew Drop - Stop at first mild turn where the trail narrows and lfoocs.

I don't see this as being a cop but as protecting both innocent skiers and the out of control skiers.

This would make skiing at Timberline much more enjoyable for all.


And yes, several weekends ago Brent planted himself at White Lighting flats and it did make a difference. I never remember seeing this done in all the days I've been there and was actually shocked that they were doing it.

Yep, it is crazy. NSP trains in first aid and rescue. Its up to the individual mountain to set protocols and instruct patrollers on how to control out of control skiers. We all do it but I can't remember in my 16 years ever being formally trained what to look for. You just kind of learn by watching those who came before you.

As another option, several mountains have dedicated Skier Safety Officers, "speed cops", none in our area that I'm aware of though.

Good points Tom. What you describe probably happens more than people realize but obviously an increase in the activity wouldn't hurt.

I've skied at Timberline every weekend and holidays for the last six years. The place is small and it is easy to see what is going on. I'm positive I know how much this goes on because I've never seen patrol marking and I've often seen them ignore unsafe skiers. If they wanted to stop this action they could. Obviously it isn't a priority for whomever calls those shots.

Different hills have different cultures. Let me give you an example: I was at Elk Mountain and I was riding up with a local and I asked him if they had any good tree skiing. He told me if you go into the trees you would have your ticket yanked - no if ands buts about it. He told me don't even try. You know what - no one skis in the trees at Elk.

So if Timberline wanted to stop skiers from bombing WL riding on their tails with hands high they could. For whatever reason the choose not to.

The main problem comes from groups and individuals who thinkwhat they are doing is safe and not dangerous to either themselves or others. Instructors warn students not to figure 11 slopes and do the stupid thing we see all the time. It's mostly the 12 to 30 YO who doesn't understand how broken up they can get when smashing into another skier, a gun or a tree. In other states and countries, you don't witness this behavior because there are specifec penalties for those who ski/board recklessly. Personally, I want to hold the group leaders (scoutmasters) acountable for this behavior, but that's up to the mountain. I know that some mountains require groups to sit through a safety presentation prior to issuing lift tickets. Perhaps ski patrol at t-line should insist on a similar protocal. It would save them a lot of work later in the day.

We've strayed a bit away from the original question but I don't want to appear to be dumping on the Ski Patrol. They do a great job on the mountain and they certainly have a unique and difficult job at Timberline given the types of skiers they deal with. For all I know they have been told not to mark up tickets. I think T-Line has one of the best "small mountain" ski schools in the country and know they teach safe skiing. This is clearly a management issue. People are just getting a bit frustrated with lifts stopping 8 to 9 times per ride on Saturday and mad bombers everywhere. All could easily be improved if management would just get on the lift and look around on busy days.

A bit? This has been the ultimate thread hijack. After reading this thread, what sane parent would ever let their kid on the slopes. Unless they decided the tax deduction was no longer worth it.



But what about racers traveling equally as fast? Racers do lose edges or get complacent. If you flag the yahoo, do you have to flag the racer? Would the general public understand the difference?

Defining dangerous and out of control is like defining pornography. We know it when we see it, we'll never admit to smiling at it, and we'll never admit to practicing it.



I'm gonna piss off at least one Whitetailer (or drag her out of lurking), but 80% percent of the Skier Safety Officers I've come across are as clueless as mud. Too many are incredibly crappy skiers, believe that anyone skiing over 2 mph is out of control, and feel the need to yell at every person to justify their jacket. Not sure if some of that is due to overly restrictive management directives. There are some notable exceptions.

...just because you can make a turns doesn't mean you should use folks as gates or blow through merge areas, crowds, slow signs,etc hallin' [censored]...there is a time and place for everything...

I am, never the less, proud of all of you. No one has yet mentioned blindness or hairy limbs in this thread.

HAHAHAHAAAHHAA! *choke* BWAHHAHAAH!

*confesses to intentionally 8-ing Skier Safety officers- in as scrapey and pivot slippy manner as possible*

In the spectrum between doing nothing and harassing competent skiers skiing fast but under control I think there is an easily recognizable area that most ski resorts seem to be able to achieve.

I will be afraid the first day I see a certain skier bearing down on me that has had a recent head trauma that may have permanently affected judgement and other cognitive functions http://www.dcski.com/ubbthreads33/images/icons/default/grin.gif When we going to see you John??

"We don't need to find the boundaries, so long as we can point to the middle"?

I'll run into you one of these weekends.

Well, I'm late to this thread, but since the OP hasn't chimed back in yet..... My kid is now 9 and started easily beating me to the bottom of Whitetail Last year. Maybe once or twice a session we will take separate trails down. He's totally competent on his own, but doesn't look behind him much, and I still worry that he will launch into the trees unseen and hurt (though he hasn't crashed all season). We also only do this on uncrowded weekdays or night sessions. I don't want any panic trying to find him in a big crowd.

Hey, Stop trying to hijack our thread!

Thanks for the feedback on this. Yeah, the discussion kinda drifted off from what I intended (silly me, I was more concerned about stranger danger and the like, given the society we live in these days), but it was still useful.

My son is 6, and I'm thinking that for now at least he'll stay supervised at all times when we're at the resort, whether that's with me or in a class. He's only ever been to Liberty, and he knows it pretty well by now, so maybe by the end of the season I'll let him do a few runs down First Class or Sneaky Pete/Nova all on his own, but not quite yet.

Already, when we were there last Monday with my 3yo (her first time skiing ever), he would race off without us, but then wait at the bottom of First Class.

Thanks again for the opinions.

When my kids were little I had them carry a piece of paper with their name, my name, address,and phone number and $5. I told them that if they got lost, go to the nearest base lodge and have a hot chocolate and I'd find them. One day my 5 yr. Old son and I were skiing at Killington on a 5 degree day snowing about 2" per hour. I had gone down ahead of him, stopped, waited and waited and he did not show up. I began asking other skiers if they had seen a little boy of his description. No luck. Nobody had seen anyone down and hurt either. After 15 minutes and growing panic I went to the nearest lodge and found him happily finishing his second hot chocolate. This was a while ago; he is 37 now and as keen a skier as ever.

I was probably a little over protective, but it is a strange world we are in. I pretty much did the same as you, put him in classes to snowboard with kids his own age and since I am a skier he needed the help from someone who knew what they were doing anyway. I dont remeber exactly when we let him go on his own, but i was more comfortable at a place like smugs were the ski patrol on the small mountain pretty much would learn all the kids names due to how they do their classes and watch for them on the mountain vs. goin to timberline where we were just a face in the crowd. He has been doing this since he was 3 or so,so at around 6 i would wait at the bottom while he would come down the small mountain at smuggs, but you pretty much have eyes on the whole time. Once he got older probably 7 or 8 we would take separate trails down with a place to meet. With a backup to meet at the lift. Did this only in places where the trail all ended at the same lift. Be prepared for them to go to the lift and give you a 5 minute heart attack. bTW The short wave radios are a much better on mountain alternative if you want to communicate and some have gps with proximity locators. Never did it myself, but always thought it would be good. By the time he was 10 he was an expert level and was comfortable with his stranger danger type of smarts. However, unless he had a buddy he generally wanted to hang with me anyway. Now he is 17, I don't want to go with him. Generally too scary for me!