Thought I would start this thread to solicit opinions regarding the area ski real estate market, and share some findings I have experienced recently.

The question is if this is a great time to be buying? The headlines in the paper talk about a housing turn around, but to what to degree does this say about the 2nd home/resort market in the midatlantic? There are likely similarities at all the area "destination resorts" including SnowShoe, Seven Springs, Hidden Valley, WISP, CV/Timberline, Massanutten, etc, but there are also local differences to consider as well. My experience has been primarily with Seven Springs/Hidden Valley, so I can speak mostly to that, although I have casually looked at Wisp as well.

On one hand the recent turn around in some of the primary markets could mean that we are now at dead bottom with 2nd homes( which typically lag the primary market) and can expect a turn around on the way.....so a great ime to buy! Or it could mean that there is still a long way to go and that you are buying into an illiquid asset for some time to come. Which is it? Certainly bank rates are low. So is anyone out there looking to buy or is everyone more comfortable with $ in 0% yield bank accounts?

Here are a few interesting facts and my experiences to share re HV and 7S:

- A search on realtor.com shows 119 properties for sale in Hidden Valley alone! This is just within the resort itself (Zip 15502). There are a several properties in the resort as well that fall into Somerset zip code, and then there are things available in the area surrounding the resort.
- Then just a few miles away is 7S with more for sale. (7S is a harder to isolate as a zip code) Bottom line is that there there an extraordinary amount for sale in just this one general area.
- According to Abe and Wags (the on-site realtor at HV), there were 5 properties sold in the resort in Nov, and about 43 YTD thru end of Nov. With 119 properties listed, what this means is that at the current rate it would take well over 2 years to clean out the existing listings, and that's not taking into account new listings. I suspect that there are many would be sellers waiting for things to "improve".
- Of the 119 properties in HV, 93 are townhouse/condos! Other than price, there is not allot of room for differentiation if you are a condo seller. Sure there are differences between newer ski in/out vs older units, but chances are that as a seller, there will be directly comparables for sale within the same complex.
- Note this is NOT a knock at HV, or in any way unique. Per separate DCSki thread on SnowShoe, snow.buck had commented that there 5 other 3BR/2BA units in his Summit complex under $99K, and no offers on any. While over 450 total listings on MLS!! That is insane. (Full disclosuere: other than skiing Snowshow a few times, I know zero about their market. What I do know is that it was a hellacious drive to get there from my house in MD and at least for me HV/7S makes more sense and enables doable weekend trips such that I could actually use and keep an eye on whatever I would buy)
- There are relatively few foreclosures: Believe this true since banks generally required more $ down on a vacation home, while buyers generally don't need a vacation home and tend to buy one when they can afford it more so than a primary home.
- At least in the Laurel Highlands, HVs prices are much better than 7S. This has been the case for a while and it may not be news as such, but is worth noting that at HV prices seem to be 30% or ore lower than 7S (believe HV owners are still suffering from the Kettler days, even though much better mamagement is now in place).
- What I was not prepared for was the tax assessments/resulting taxes of some of the resort properties. Somerset schools has higher taxes than other districts, and taxes for can be $3K a year or more for some pretty average properties. While not high by DC area standards, at least I get something for my Howard county takes such as trash pick up and excellent schools for my kids. PA doesn't do trash pick up, and as a vacation home owner I wouldn't use thier schools, so seems high. Add in homeowners fees and before you know it will cost $5K/yr just to have a property sit there with no utilities. Something to consider; It takes lots of rental income just to pay that.
- Generally speaking, sellers who have just listed their property, especially who purchased within the last 10 years, are unrealistic; They need time to sit on the market and experience pain to the point that they fully realize that they made a bad move in 2007. Some sellers really NEED to sell. Death and divorce can be a buyers friend.
- All of this blood in the streets makes me excited as a buyer for the exact opposite reason that when everyone was buying in 2007 it was the exact wrong time to buy. A serious, prefinanced buyer can negotiate big time, and it makes sense to lowball multiple offers to get an idea of who really wants to sell.


So at least to conclude my experiences, I did end up buying a 3BR house just outside the resorts in the Laurel Highlands (lower taxes, no HOA). It was a foreclosure and after months of negotiation, I paid less than what I paid for my car...and I drive what is considered an economy car.

Party's at Edgar's house

Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.

PS: I was skiing at a small, but nice Tahoe resort called Homewood yesterday (maybe the Hidden Valley of Tahoe ). Its base is about a hundred yards from the shore of the lake, the views from the slopes are spectacular. Across the street from the base lodge are a variety of houses which are essentially both slopeside and lakeside properties, pinched between the two. How many millions do you think they go for, even the little ones??

I would not buy ski-property in the Mid-Atlantic with the idea of spending a lot of time skiing. I think if you want the property because its cool and you like it year-round great.

My local material supplier said yesterday that building materials are expected to sky rocket and peak by end of 2014...lumber is projected to be up 37% in the spring/early summer...these kind of jumps usually occur on the tale end of a housing slump/during a housing shortage...these trends often also coincide with a rise in housing pricing and sometimes a rise in interest rates...so the getting might be as good as it gets for housing purchases in general right now...as far as mid-atlantic vacation homes go, the only market I am familiar with is Canaan Valley area, and with the extermely limited inventory, the turn in housing that seems to be on the horizon, and the completion of corridor H to Davis next yearish---if your seriously lookin' in the valley then stop looking and buy while you can...there have been some great deals going down over the last year...

I've rented a ski house for 6 winters at Timberline and I've never had a problem getting tons of skiing in. Last year in arguably the worst snow year in awhile I logged 38 days at T-Line. This is all weekend and long weekend skiing with one week at X-Mas. So I don't quite know what it means that someone can't get a lot of skiing in if they purchased a ski house in the mid atlantic.

Regarding taxes, an interesting tidbit for Canaan Valley/Timberline is the fact that a rental property in Tucker County pays exactly double the regular property tax rate of non-rental property.
Oh, and the WV state and county sales and hotel/motel taxes on rent are 12% !
Ouch and ouch.

...and vacant land in the valley is also taxed at a higher rate...for full time residents the taxing of property is also extremely biased against the valley...I owned a 1500 square foot home in the valley about 7 years ago and my taxes where about $600 a year---at the same time a 2000 square foot house in Davis was taxed $75 a year...the fact of the matter is this is a very poor county with a median household income of around 25K, and folks in Parson try to get as much as they can out of the folks living or renting in the valley...it seems to me that the unbalanced thing about it all is that the majority of this tax money appears to be spent down in parsons while it appears that the valley see very little investment in infrastructure or public resources even though there is a large portion of revenue coming from the valley...I don't know for sure but I bet the taxes in the valley are still a lot less than they are in the lowland metropolitan areas...

Same at Snowshoe (Pocahontas County) Owner/Occupant pays half the tax as a Landlord. Wish some of you wide-eyed optimists would visit Snowshoe and buy Buy BUY! LOL

If you are buying as an investor, below may help. If you are buying for personal use I can't speak to that.

I own 2 condos in Snowshoe Mountain Lodge. We use them 2 weekends a season.

Today, there is a 1 BR slopeside right below mine listed for 59K.

If someone has 59k sitting in the bank ....Here's the math

I know a 1 BR can generate about 15K in annual rentals if you are willing to do the work. This is no BS. I've been doing it for years.

Rent +15K
Condo Fees -5.4K
Cleaning / Linens -2.5K
Taxes-.6K
Utilities -.6K
advertising -1K

Net = +4.9

That's an 8.31% rate of return without factoring in the tax effect of all of the above which is very favorable.

Then consider if / when the property value rises.

Also - I buy light bulbs at the Elkins Walmart when I go down on each trip. Now those 2 ski weekends I take each year become tax deductible for meals and mileage.

Disclaimer - I'm a CPA by trade and considered an active rental manager for tax purposes. My cell phone and internet service are tax deductible since they are means of running a rental business.

In Summary - BUY ONE at these prices.

I found many properties that are now selling for half based on the same time last year - all in Timberline / Canaan Valley area.
www.bestofcanaan.com
www.t4sr.com

"In Summary - BUY ONE at these prices. "
yes - buy - please PLEASE. The Realors there don't measure "Days-on-Market" but "Years-on-Market". If they were such a great deal wouldn't someone ... some one ... any one ... be buying??? Correct...you'd generally list for half what you paid, but don't plan on getting THAT much for it. Why would everyone in the world be passing up such great deals if they actually were?!?

You make a good point; The western resorts are expensive. Granted, midatlantic skiing does not compare with Tahoe and is nowhere as spectacular, but it is at least readily accessable. Thats what I like about 7s/HV...just 3 hours I can be there.I have a friend of mine that had a place on the bottom loop at Deer Valley. They would get there just once a year, and I can only imagine what it was costing them, and don't see how the numbers could work from a rental/investment perspective at that level.

snow.buck,

I know you are frustrated (as am I) with the collapse over the past few years but some folks that have long term goals, this really could be a good opportunity.

For others who just want out - it really stinks.

Real estate investing is not for everyone. There is a lot of inventory that needs moved. It's going to take time.

I have owned a ski property at Hidden Valley for almost 9 years. I use it every other weekend with exception of Spring time when the weather is not ideal and the ski resort is closed. HV is a master planned community currently consisting of 1,100+/- single homes,townhomes and condos. I think what I like about HV is the fact that it is master planned and the amenities, landscape, walkability and architecture are very well done. Additionally, it is only an hours drive to Pittsburgh if I want some city life and other developed areas such as Greensburg, Johnstown, Cumberland, Deep Creek Lake, Frostburg, Bedford, etc. are a reasonably close drive. We also looked at the Canaan area and our concern was that on a rainy weekend, there was basically nothing to do. That said the beauty and skiing are better in the Canaan area. The Deep Creek Lake and Wisp area is also known as Deep Pockets Lake, so we couldn't find a house in our price range. Additionally, there were no well done master planned communities there. I was not looking for a single house on a couple of acres because I already own one of those in the Baltimore area. We looked at property in the Wintergreen resort which is a beautifully planned community,but we thought it was too far south to have good snow conditions. Then we stumbled upon Hidden Valley which I had never even heard of. We actually visited during the summer months. The weather at HV during the summer is fantastic especially compared to the stiffling summers in Baltimore. Obviously the skiing at HV is not the most challenging but Buncher has done a great job improving the ski infrastructure and if they ever open the 'Outback' we'll will have a few more challenging runs. Additionally, you have a stake in 'Mid-Atlantic Ski Country' allowing for easy access to Seven Springs, Blue Knob, Wisp and hopefully one day, Laurel Moutain. There are 10s of thousands of acres of public land including my favorite, Laurel Hill State Park within close walking or driving distance. Convenient shopping for food and just about everything else is located in Somerset, 10 miles away.
Ever since the economy went south the inventory at HV has been over 100 homes. The small Highlands condos do not tend to sell well and stay on the market for a long time. My townhome is in Eagles Ridge, is surrounded by woods, overlooks Forbes State Forest and I have a great view of mountains and the north face of Seven Springs. I am 200 yards from the Southridge heated swimming pool so it is an easy walk. I am considering retiring and building a new single house in the new GreenTee subdivision.

It is still a buyers market. If you want you and your family to enjoy the 'resort lifestyle' now is the time. In fact I have a friend who is selling a Eagels Ridge townhome which overlooks the State Forest, has been renovated, has 3 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, a pellet stove, new roof, etc and they have lowered the price to $155k I believe. It was well taken care of. If interested, PM me.

Best of luck

Buy low; sell high.

Or buy low, sell before developers dilute any value gains by overbuilding again.

EDIT: Of course building materials will rise again. The moment there is upwards movement in the value of existing properties is also the moment when developers can gear up for more construction work. It's not like there's a lack of cheap labor.

*shrug* Until I retire, a time-share program is just SO much less hassle.

How about: buy for your skiing enjoyment. If you make money, great. If not, happy turns. Ski properties are a lifestyle choice and not a serious investment. That's why loans can be hard to come by in ski country.

"How about: buy for your skiing enjoyment." LOL LOL Obviously you've never had the condo ownership/vacation property experience or delt with a HOA. Once the honeymoon is over you start feeling obligated to go to the same place over and over and over again, 'cause you own it. It pains me to PAY for trans, lodging, lifts at Killington while owning at SS which is free...now sick of the place. None of us expect to get half what we paid...but wish to get something...but nothin' is selling there at any price.

I was lucky. I bought well before "the crash". I doubled my money on what I paid for my first place, then invested into another. I would not make any money the second place I bought at this point. However, I agree it is a lifestyle choice. I look forward to going there every other weekend, especially during ski season. But I still take ski trips to Utah, Colorado, Vermont, etc. Your options are sitting home in gray DC/Balto with an occaisonal ski trip or skiing as much as you care to from your local ski home. I chose the latter. Yeah it costs money, but my wife and I enjoy it very much.

If I can dump it, the $10,000/yr in HOA fees, taxes, utilities, special assessments, etc. etc. will pay for more then enough ski vacations per year for me to handle...and...not the same place over and over and over. I did my last drive THE DRIVE to Snowshoe...in the Realtors hands now. Unfortunately, their hands are full with over 450+ other units at SS! LOL

snow.buck - what is the total number of units at SS. We have 100+ for sale at HV and we have 1100 units, so about 10% are for sale.

When I bought my unit I did not want more than a 3 hour drive. I could not drive 5+ hours after work on Friday, so I understand why SS may be somewhat of a hassle. I cannot understand why people buy condos in Utah and then need to fly there one or two weeks a year. You may as well just rent. Yes, owning a ski property can be expensive and I can see the logic about using the money to take trips. Owning a ski property is like owning a boat. You really need to be into owning and using the boat. And that ain't cheap. Similar with a ski house except real estate is SUPPOSED to appreciate. After 9 years I still enjoy it. I just skied 9 consective days during the Holiday's. If I did not own a ski house, I would have been stuck in rainy Baltimore. Yin and the yang.

...or trade your timeshare points in for wherever the big snow is. Do you count that as 'occasional'?



It's nice when it does; I don't see any particular economic reason it should. Demand is not as great as pre-recession. Builders are not even close to being fully busy. Permits for new construction are, if anything, easier to get. Why should any existing construction appreciate?

This was posted 10 years ago, I don't see any reason to doubt their findings now:

http://mit.edu/cre/research/papers/wp82wheaton.pdf

If it wasn't for the long drive to SS, I would have been happy to go there and make some lowball offers. All those sellers and no buyers is wonderful situation (for buyers). Although I had a great time again. I limited my focus to WISP/7S/HV to keep it under 3 hrs. WISP is higher cost, and I like 7S/HV because you have 2 resorts just a few minutes away, as well as a town 15 min away for the things a property owner needs, but doesn't want next door, like a Lowes and Walmart.

BTW everything you are saying is even more true for property at the beach, where costs are even higher. I have a friend with a place in South Carolina because it was less $ than DE/MD beaches, but he never goes becaus it is 8 hours to get there. Meanwhile his flood insurance is $$$$.

You are all right on. Owning Vacation Property is like a husband describing giving birth! Ya' sorta have to be the one doing it to really "get it". LOL Agreed, SS's inaccessibility may be their main problem in sales. Attempting that drive in inclement weather or in the dark is prohibitively treacherous...not like all highway-to-7S/Wisp. My new Realtor told me it would never ever go back to the old prices (so ever breaking even is way out), and it'll never appreciate yearly more then the annual expenses so holding out is out. I'm just hoping for 40 cents-on-the-dollar...but not happened yet!!! Edgar3 - yes, peeps in the Office w/beach property are singing the same song! At least ski property doesn't get hurricanes and flooding!!! And, yes, I had a boat 30 years ago...and the joke back then is as true today: the 2nd happiest day is the day you buy it...the 1st...

To resurrect this thread, are condo fees for your condo really $10,000 a year? That sounds like a whole lot for a condo that you are selling for less than $100k. It sounds like your fed up with the whole condo owner thing. Are the condo fees the biggest root of your frustration. Do they go up? How often?

This thread has been an interesting read, I missed reading it earlier because I was out in Colorado skiing at Winter Park, Steamboat, and Eldora.
Are you able to rent out your property in Tucker County for a limited number of weeks per year (like say 3 weeks) but still treat it as a residence vs a rental for tax purposes? I think renting a vacation home for two or three weeks a year could go a long way towards offsetting some of the maintenance costs of a property, especially if it doesn't cause your property taxes to triple.
The facts that for many vacation properties have the potential to be more of a time and money consuming drag than an enjoyable asset, which locks you into doing most of your vacationing in one place and is probably not a particularly good investment ring true. However if I knew for certain that I was going to be in the DC area long term term and had the money for it I would almost certainly be looking to buy a house in "The Valley". A couple factors would play into my decision, one is what others have pointed out, the importance of buying close enough to make a weekend trip worth while and enjoyable. There is a big difference between a 2:45 drive after work or after a day of skiing and a four and a half hour drive, and whether that drive is on a easy highway or slow windy mountain roads makes a big difference also. Another is the fact that I would use it regularly throughout the year since I like to get a way from the masses on the weekends, fly fish, hike, rock climb. (Seneca is only a half hour a way from "The Valley") A house next to skiing within an easy drive would probably be the ticket (albeit an expensive ticket) to take me from a 12 days of skiing a year up to 30. I can definitely appreciate the cons many of you have mentioned of owning such a property the fact that a weekend away can get taken up by worrying about maintenance on the property, the sense of being tied down to one area instead of feeling free to take a couple of trips out west to ski big mountains with really good snow.
Do you think it will be too late to take advantage of low prices and high supply in the Canaan Valley area in a couple of years? Is there room for lower offers on many of the homes for sale there now given the length of time they are spending on the market? Though it would be bad for all of you who already own there I selfishly hope property values in the valley don't spike now that Corridor H will be complete to Davis this fall, so that if in a couple of years it looks like I will be staying here I can buy a house out there.

Where you getting that info? AFAIK, Fall 2014 for completion to Davis, including the finish of the big time-saving climb up to Bismarck/Mt. Storm.

http://www.wvcorridorh.com/

From what I have seen, there is still plenty of excess inventory in the 2nd home market. Thus it is still a buyers market. Unless you can hold onto your vacation home for a long time (say 10 -20 years), I doubt you'll make any money.By the time you pay the condo fee, the taxes, the water bill, the cable bill, buy the 2nd toaster over, 2nd blender,etc. you'll not make much money, if any. However, if you had to rent a vacation home every other weekend, it would cost you a fortume. So in a sense, if you use your vacation home frequently, it does save you the cost of renting. I use my home every other weekend and I do not rent it out.It is our escape and I do not really get tired of going to the same area. I still take ski trips to Vermont and out west. I own a townhouse which requires very little maitenance. My sister-in-law (SIL) owns a single house which requires you to do your own maintenance. It seems like all they do is work on the place. That to me is not a 'vacation' home, it is a burden. While I do need to pay a condo fee of $460/quarter, I do not need to maintain any of the grounds around my house, they shovel the snow, plow the parking area,rake the leaves, trim the shrubs, mulch the beds, etc. and I get to use 2 swimming pools, tennis courts, etc. Of course the fees for a single house are less, but my SIL has to pay to have her driveway plowed, the need to cut the grass, rake the leaves, mulch the shrubs, etc. I have a mountain vacation home because I want to ski, hike, bike, get away from the brutal Balto/DC summers, enjoy the clean air and natural beauty, not work on my house everytime I am there. So I guess what I am suggesting is consider the benefits of paying the higher condo fees instead of buying a maintenanc nightmare that requires your time and money. I also would suggest that if you cannot afford the mortgage without renting, do not buy a vacation home.Renters will trash the place. I also am considering using my vacation home as an eventual retirement home. Thus I need medical facilities nearby. That is why I decided on the Laurel Mountains where world class medical facilities are only an hours drive away in Pittsburgh. On a rainy day I can also drive to Pittsburgh or Greensburgh where my wife's shopping jones can be satisfied or we can attend a movie or theatrical events.I looked for a while in the CV area, but concluded it was too far out in the boondocks for full time living and I may get bored during rainy periods, little shopping nearby, minimal cultural and education facilities nearby, no hospitals that I would trust, etc.

We love our vacation home and look forward to our little weekend vacations. I get to ski far more than I ever have and can get away from the brutal Baltimore heat in the summer. If you can afford this luxury, I highly recommend it.

JohnL, your probably right that website is probably more authoritative than any other on Corridor H progress, I was looking at http://corridorh2020.com/ their map put the completion to Davis at 2013 and remembering some old news articles saying they would be done to Davis by 2013. Guess I'll have to wait another season before shaving off another 15+ minutes off my drive to good local skiing.

Snowsmith, the advantage of a house vs a condo in my mind is that with a house you actually own some physical dirt and within the constraints of your HOA can do what you please with that dirt. With a condo you only own the air and furnishings within a box but not the actual building or the land it sits on. However the no exterior maintenance is huge. Thats good advice on not buying it unless you can afford the mortgage, I was more thinking of renting a theoretical vacation home to some friends/acquaintances for a few days rather than having a rental agency rent it to random people or using VRBO etc. For me in Arlington "The Valley" is a little closer than the Laurel mountains, seems to get more snowfall/has seemingly better terrain (I haven't actually skied 7Springs or HV) certainly has more vert.
However what you have with a weekend getaway and ability to take mini vacations nearly every weekend if you like sounds like a very nice luxury, I am jealous, maybe in a few years...

...wintertime conditions are above average here in Canaan for the Mid-A, can sometimes be epic...but the best time of year here is the spring-summer-fall...80 degrees is a hot day, no traffic/not even a stoplight, endless outdoor recreation, and super friendly laid back recreation oriented locals...I would be very surprised if land and home sale values/comps get any lower than they are right now in the valley and surrounding areas---in fact, I would count on them goin' up...but that is just an educated guess...so I would say yes, right now is the time to buy land or a home in the valley or surrounding areas...

Excellent points, Snowsmith.

2PTOG - yes, Canaan is tops for ski terrain around here. I love the area. I drive from HV to Timberline in about 2 hours. I don't think there is a major difference in snowfall between the Laurels and the Canaan area. Regardless of where you buy, you'll have a stake in Mid-Atlantic Snow Country. It ain't Utah, but you have access to Timberline, Canaan, Wisp, 7Springs, HV, Blue Knob and hopefully, Laurel Mountain. Thus while you may have a home at one resort, you have good access to the others. I look forward to each of my little weekend vacations. In fact, last weekend was especially memorable since we received a surprise lake effect event with 14" of fresh powder. I actually called in sick on Monday, the first time I have done that in 20 years! I can hardly wait until my next little weekend ski vacation.
Now is the time to buy if you have the resources. You can almost name your own price. I started with a condo and traded up for a very beautiful town home. So if you don't mind lower your expectations a little for your first purchase, you can get a cheap condo, say, and then trade up at a later time. You'll never get a surprise 14" of powder east of the Appalachians. So I say go for it.....you won't regret it.

Im not selling the home I had built & landscaped with 100 different firs,spruces,hemlocks, European white birches..ect.. up at the land of Canaan with a serious dose of Blood, Sweat n Tears of joy watching the last shingle laid down...till its time to pay someone to wipe my......

>To resurrect this thread, are condo fees for your condo really $10,000 a year? That sounds like a whole lot for a condo that you are selling for less than $100k. It sounds like your fed up with the whole condo owner thing. Are the condo fees the biggest root of your frustration. Do they go up? How often?

Your condo fee will likely not be $10K/yr. What was being referenced that with taxes, HOA, utilities, etc you are likely looking at $10K/yr. I have found this to be a good rule of thumb as it would apply to property in the resort, while just outside of the resort you can save on HOA and taxes.

I don't think that you have missed the market by any means. To the contrary, I would say that the 2nd home market in mid atlantic resort areas has yet to turn around, or is so overhung with properties on the market that it doesn't mattter. If there are 400 properties for sale or 300, does it really make a difference?

I would agree with all the points made by Snowsmith. It can be a wonderful thing to have a vacation property that you use and enjoy, and it really comes down to if you have time to fit it into your life and if that's what you want to do. Another thing I would agree with is the summer usage: When I bought my place I was primarily thinking about skiing, but as it turns out I have come to enjoy my time there in the summer as much or more than the winter. Days with highs rarely beyond 80 and low humidity, combined with all the outdoor activities and laid back lifestyle and people of the Laurel Highlands eventually gets you to the point where you don't give a sh*t about the fast paced DC-Baltimore rat race, and that is good. My place is a cottage right along a creek with a couple acres, and I can say that I actually enjoy doing outdoor maintenance work, and there is really no other place I would rather be; A place where I can see the results of my labors rather than just dealing in bits and bytes and decimal points. From that perspective, I got something much more than I had expected.

This will be the 14th year I own at Snowshoe. Yes there are quite a few units for sale but still at higher prices than I paid for my condo. I will agree that with our particular condo complex, overhead is particularly high. This is the result of an almost $2M outside renovation with Hardiplank siding and brand new self-standing decks, we had a recent major fire in the condo complex (thanks to college-age renters, which of course both, jacked up our insurance AND caused us to have to spend another several hundred thousands replacing all wood fire places with gas). Still, I don't regret my decision. Considering depreciation amortization, the fact that I have no mortgage on the property, I love the highlands both Winter, Summer and Fall, and that I have a place I call my own for my friends and family and most of all, my pup, it's money well spent. And if I have to get the heck out of the Megapolis, I can scoot over to my place.

As it stands now, I barely rent the place, only on three-day weekends when being at Snowshoe is more a hassle than a convenience. Let OPM pay for my HOA and part of the utilities.

I just checked our real estate office and sales are going 20% above last year. While this may not mean much, the market is certainly on the rebound.

LOL "On the rebound" You just made my coffee come out my nose! LOL A 5 bdrm/4.5 bath Black Bear TOWNHOUSE needing interior finishing closed for $167,000.
Who's your realtor (I've listed with both ReMax and Snowshoe Realty = nuthin')? The Summit condos are closing in the low $90k's (ummm...the one that did!). I had 2 legitimate contract presentations: $72,500 and $50,000.

So now's the time to buy.

167k for a 5br/4.5 bath!! how much finishing did it need? I'd be all over something like that if it wasn't at snowshoe.

You're confusing prices and units sold, Rich. They are different as apples and oranges. Like it or not, sales ARE rapidly outpacing last years. Low-ball offers are the first to get on the record. But the market is on an upswing.

The same thing applied when I bought my unit, just after the S&L debacle. Units were being sold for a fraction of their original cost, and I came in at the right time. Even if I sold today, I'd make a tidy profit. And counting the deductions, depreciation, etc., I'd make off quite well. Not that I'm even contemplating that move as I'm in the market for the long term.

The folks who got hurt real bad were the flippers, stuck with properties they couldn't sell.

Jimmy, Black Bear was the last condo complex to be built at Snowshoe. They are huge, expansive townhomes on sloping terrain right at the step of the Powder Ridge lift. That means some are three to five stories tall, with gorgeous stone walls in some of them. Some are ski-in-ski-out. The overbuilding at Snowshoe for "vanity money" on the newer buildings meant that originally, these units were sold for up to a million, and today they're a fraction of what they sold for six years ago. Some were left unfinished after the market tanked. Some are shells, some are partly finished. It is a seriously good bargain for someone who wants to come in at the ground floor with disposable income.

Wow

If we could get 50 DCSkiers to throw in a grand each we could use snowbuck's place as a party house.

He'd love that. Haven't seen him at all at Snowshoe. I do believe he'll get to sell his place soon.

Drywall - that was it. You can't give Snowshoe property away!

20% increase in sales might be right - out of 400 condos on the MSL & FSBO they sold 5 last year and 6 this year...yes, about 20% better! LOL
Just remember what the GM said at the Homeowners meeting: "I wasn't hired to improve Snowshoe, just to curb its downward spiral". As-witnessed-by about 300 Owners present, along with:
Owner: "Can you at least paint the rotting run down Shaver Center?".
GM: "No, we can't afford the paint".

Good points from all, thanks for your input. Sounds like the prices at Snowshoe are a little more depressed than prices in "The Valley", probably due to the huge quantity of condos and townhomes at Snowshoe and the fact that accessability to "The Valley" will be improving in the next few years. There doesn't really seem to be much available near Timberline in terms of condos, at least not compared to the number of houses and lots available. Are there general contractors looking for work in the Davis area to make building on lots easy? Is it generally more affordable in that area to buy an existing house or buy a lot and build, or are they nearly equal in cost?

My wife is in contention for a better higher paying job in this area which would keep us here for at least 3 years maybe more and I am transitioning out of the military this summer so maybe this fall if I find a good civilian job here I can go real estate shopping knowing I am going to be around for a minimum of three or four years if not much more long term. I would prefer to wait until I knew with good confidence that I will be in the area and able to enjoy the property for 10+ years but I also want to take advantage of current low prices and would rather be able to enjoy my assets for a winter of skiing and a summer of hiking and fishing than look at numbers in a bank account paying almost no interest. If I do wait three more years before I buy thats three more years I don't get 30+ days of skiing and a bunch of summer weekends out in the mountains to enjoy.

We obviously view the world in different shades. The resort property market is more subject to economic fluctuations than the primary home market. And yes, the sales are increasing as the prices have pretty much bottomed and a larger pool of buyers are once again enthused about the prospect of resort property.

Resort property is not a short-term deal. It is a long-term project. I bought really low. It went high. It went low again. It went way high (when you bought your property). Now it's low again, but each low is higher than all the other lows had been. So I'm optimistic. And I wouldn't sell my place now anyway as I'm looking at several more years of enjoyment.

And besides, by trashing your own property site, you're being your own worst enemy. Negativity is self-sustaining.

First of all, congratulations on your service and best wishes for continued success and happiness. Retiring from the military for me was a time of incertitude yet tremendous opportunities. Not only is there life outside of the military but it gets better. Much better.

You're correct, with the ultimate end to construction of Corridor H, the Valley stands to gain immeasurably as it will likely be 2.5 hours away from DC. And I hope that we get a rapid conclusion to the Wardensville bypass and connection to I-66 too so we can get there quickly.

When I bought at Snowshoe, I had just come from my penultimate military assignment overseas with a dog (Bogotá, Colombia). Then, I ski about 40-60 days a year. And putting pencil to paper, the kennel fees (very few places allow pets) and lodging for myself more than covered the mortgage payments. Add to that the peace of mind of having MY own place, that I can personalize with MY tastes, that I can leave MY stuff for my friends and family, and the decision was clear. Then on top of that, there are hefty discounts for home owners (10-15% depending on the place) for restaurants and the like. Then, as I also rented my place, I could depreciate it. And every nail you put in it is deductible. And so are the maintenance trips. So the decision was clear. With a little effort on my own and the rental income, I paid off the place in less than 12 years. Now it's mine, mine, all mine and no one can tell me I can't bring my pup or what size of family I can bring.

As I said in another missive, resort property is a long-term project with so many intangible benefits. If you go into it thinking of selling in two or three years, IMHO you're going on it with the wrong outlook.

I have absolutely enjoyed my property experience at Snowshoe. Now that I'm on my second retirement I can be there with Tango (my Black Lab) as long as I desire. Summer, Winter, Fall (Spring is mud season). I have another place to call home. And I love it.

I understand those who want their own place but it is not for me. I like to move around and would be bored to tears as a captive (by virtue of my investment) at any mid Atlantic ski area. Even in New England and the west, I'd prefer to use my budget on variety rather than concentrate on one place. This makes even more sense in that my wife does not ski, nor like cold, snow, or being far from the city.

no - spend $150k and get a home in Park City UT like this

http://search.jrre.pcmls.com/5.6.10.3083...amp;ShowLinks=1

duh - so many properties from 120-180

if you have around $350

http://search.jrre.pcmls.com/5.6.10.3083...amp;ShowLinks=1

Ah but Park City isn't an easy drive away in any season so you might only get to use your nice place near epic skiing a couple of weeks a year.

-and have to spend hundreds of dollars for airline tickets, parking, getting rental car for each visit
- and have to multiply that by 3 or 4 to take the wife and 2 kids along
-and have to plan and pay $$ for pet care services rather than letting the Retriever jump in the back of the SUV (this alone cost me $250 on our Christmas trip to Taos)
-and go through the soul crushing process at the airport everytime you want to "relax and get away"
- and be highly dependent upon local managers and contractors with related $$ for every detail
- And not being able to easily take the used furniture, tools, groceries and spare food from the fridge along with you, and instead spending your vacation time in a Walmart in Park City getting all this crap
- And have to sit in a stinking airplane for many hours each way with the guy behind you having his knee shoved in your kidney
- And knowing this experience is impractical to do as just a weekend trip, so having to use up your holidays or vacation time to do it, which for practical purposes will likely limit you to maybe twice a year

So yes, the small percentage of time one is actually skiing in Park City it will be better.

Like Denis posted.. variety is the spice of life but I'm With "I-Bought-a"..condo..there is some thing special about that Home sweet home feeling!

Yep. The other thing is that airline travel today is just a bit worse than going to the dentist for a root canal. The TSA gauntlet. Proving that you're worthy to travel to a surly, ill-mannered and generally ignorant TSA agent who believes that everyone is guilty and you have to prove your innocence. Having to pay for luggage in excess of a pair of underwear and your ski boots. Airline agents who simply don't care. A new breed of fellow passengers who pick their noses, clip their nails at their seats, and play with their toe cheese in public (and I've personally seen it). Slave-ship overcrowding at the plane. Seat pitch that will give you DVT. Having to pre-medicate with Airborne so your immune system can withstand the shutting off of at leas one of the air conditioning boost packs in the plane. Dirty seats with everything from vomit to bodily fluids on the seats and seat trays. No, thanks.

you simply have to become a Delta Skymiles Platinum card holder. Preferred zone 1 boarding, get preferred bulkhead seating, free check-in baggage on a direct DCA to SLC flight. One companion ticket to anywhere in the ConUS for $100 . Arrange to be able to telecommute and stay for 2-3 months or just save up your PTO so you can spend three weeks like I am doing this year. And you get a freakin' pukin' outside like right now .

now if i could just score those Salomon Rocker 2 122 ;-)

just hangin' around he house "drinking the ski blue"as Jeremy Nobis would say...

I feel the same way about skiing Snowshoe. One less air traveler and one less Snowshoe skier. chacun son got.

How long you in The Canyons? Might be able to talk about Mid-Atlantic ski properties with you in person. As I'm skiing my new Salomon's.

If I have to fly more than three hours, I will go business

or 1 class lol they get drinks right away :-D

grrrr until the 27th then back to frikin' dc ugh. couldn't afford going 3/5 time for a couple of months this year the boat ate that money - well maybe next year?