Once the next weather front Mon a bit colder. Most resorts open very little the first few days. Time works wonders.

We are still in drought so the rain is good. Snowmaking needs water. The real question will be are the later opens  getting later and will the cycle stay.  I need 8 good weeks, 3x a week to get my visits in.

Zardog

Unfortunately it's not looking good for any lengthy snowmaking for the next few weeks at least.    I am afraid this is going to be a very short season for Liberty and Whitetail.   

https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/WK34/

mdr227 wrote:

Unfortunately it's not looking good for any lengthy snowmaking for the next few weeks at least.    I am afraid this is going to be a very short season for Liberty and Whitetail.   

https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/WK34/

 So frustrating - we've had six of seven frosts in Alexandria, but the weather hasn't permitted serious snowmaking 75 miles northwest.

I do not want to sound like a Vail apologist, but Whitetail has made snow at every viable window possible this season. They upgraded/repaired several aspects of their snowmaking infrastructure that last season limited them, especially in the early season. I've regularly checked the webcams, and they have made snow at extremely marginal temperatures this year, but there is not much they can do when the wet bulb does not cooperate. 

powday wrote:

I do not want to sound like a Vail apologist, but Whitetail has made snow at every viable window possible this season. They upgraded/repaired several aspects of their snowmaking infrastructure that last season limited them, especially in the early season. I've regularly checked the webcams, and they have made snow at extremely marginal temperatures this year, but there is not much they can do when the wet bulb does not cooperate. 

Yeah, I've never quite understood the notion that any Mid-Atlantic resort would willingly delay snowmaking.  The seasons here are so short that they all want to open as early as possible.  They're not selling lift tickets or food or retail or lessons or rentals when they're not open, and season passholders are unlikely to buy future passes if they don't feel they've gotten their money's worth.  So they absolutely want to get the lifts running as soon as possible.

But they also don't want to waste money making snow that's just going to melt before they're able to open.  And the weather here is so variable and hard to predict, so that makes those decisions challenging.

Scott, you make a good some good points about the economics of running a ski resort.  But you have to admit the different operators who have the same set of challenges are making very different decisions.

There are a number of resorts around here who are in roughly the same boat when it comes to snowmaking conditions.  Yet Massanutten and Bryce consistently open earlier and close later than Liberty/Whitetail.

This past weekend is a great example-  Liberty/Whitetail/Roundtop couldn't get open but Bryce had 7(!) runs open and Massanutten had 4. 

We are now in year 3 of Vail running the former SnoTime resorts.  You can't chalk up these consistent operational differences to "weather".

ps Blue Mountain, base elevation 455 feet, 80 miles northwest of Roundtop had 15 runs open on Saturday

Numbers speak volumes.  I was up at Jack Frost, Saturday and no crowds,  eventhough conditions were good.  To the South,  Blue Mtn was packed. If you reinvest and market the improvements year after year people will take notice. 

I rode the lift at JF with an owner of one of condos next to JF. He made a comment that defines VR's image. New lifts are fine and dandy, but you need to continue the improvements to have people show up.

From what I can tell for the weather patterns, comparing Wintergreen to Massanutten and/or Bryce may be more relevant than for Whitetail and Liberty.

I learned a while back that there are often times when Mnut can't make snow but Bryce can.  A few of the senior managers at Mnut started out working at Bryce.  The two operations teams stay in touch with each other.  Bryce is in a "cold sink" while the peak of Massanutten often ends up with an inversion.  There are often times when it's in the high 20s in the valley but the peak is over 32.

RodneyBD wrote:

There are a number of resorts around here who are in roughly the same boat when it comes to snowmaking conditions.  Yet Massanutten and Bryce consistently open earlier and close later than Liberty/Whitetail.

This past weekend is a great example-  Liberty/Whitetail/Roundtop couldn't get open but Bryce had 7(!) runs open and Massanutten had 4. 

We are now in year 3 of Vail running the former SnoTime resorts.  You can't chalk up these consistent operational differences to "weather".

The weather at massanutten and Bryce isn’t quite the same as the snowTime resorts. Whitetail is also almost entirely southern facing, so high rate of snowmelt. While there was years they opened around thanksgiving (which vail doesn’t seem to have interest in) it looks like they usually opened around Christmas.  Whitetail especially can put out a ton of snow very quickly when conditions allow. While I know it isn’t fully indicative of what is going to happen out east, I’ve been in Colorado some this season and the resorts there seem better staffed and smoother ops than they have been since 2020. (Ie Outback gondola at keystone is actually running daily) 

Mid Atlantic is due for some cold weather, so hopefully they are ready for it when it comes. 

Snowshoe and 7 springs used to open around the same time, but snowshoe has invested incredible amounts of money in snowmaking (as has timberline) and the results speak for themselves. I suspect Vail is going to have to put some major investment in 7 springs in the next few years. 

Looks like whitetail is blowing snow this morning. Nothing at liberty. 

Hoping for the best. 

Whitetail is still blowing this morning while Lib/RT are not due to slightly higher temps to the east. Ive got a group of 10 that wants to ski Friday - hoping WT can open by then, but am not optimistic. Probably will head to 7Springs.

 I think it is going to be a tough call for Whitetail on their opening date, given the forecast after this cold spell. Warmer temps & rain are forecast around and a few days after Christmas. I am not sure they will want to push out the snow whales on warm/wet ground. 

hotelterp wrote:

Whitetail is still blowing this morning while Lib/RT are not due to slightly higher temps to the east. Ive got a group of 10 that wants to ski Friday - hoping WT can open by then, but am not optimistic. Probably will head to 7Springs.

Was also checking webcam for Liberty they fired up all guns tonight although temp and moister only a little above marginal.

meredithb_14 wrote:

does anyone remember when the last time whitetail or liberty was 100% open. Genuinely just curious 

The 2021-2022 winter season, which seems long ago, but was the winter before last.  (Last winter was kind of a bust, sadly.)

I skied at Whitetail on February 2, 2022 (less than 2 years ago), and I believe every trail was open except Ledgewood, which was in the process of being "disowned" by Whitetail and no longer appears on any trail map.  So that trail didn't really count.

Here's my Firsthand Report from that trip, along with some photos.  Hopefully Whitetail looks like this again soon.

Yup.  I was there on January 27, 2022.  Skied every run, and got an "Everest" by doing 29,500 feet of vertical over seven hours.  It was great.  I was just lapping and lapping all day.  I would start at Fanciful, work my way over to Far Side, then start over again.

Last year, I only went to Whitetail twice.  The first time there were zero black runs open, and even the blues were... sketchy.  The second time I went, the only black open was Bold Decision (and I don't think they opened anything else after).

Not blaming Vail here... they were blowing when they could.  But it makes me sad that Whitetail and Liberty are so marginal, and we keep ending up on the "a few degrees above freezing" side of things vs. "a few degrees below freezing".

Looking at the webcams and forecasts, they should have 24-36 hours of snow making potential between now and Saturday morning. I'd guess they nominally reopen on Friday with pretty sparse coverage and the guns on full blast all day. Saturday they can make snow all day in addition to the natural snow that arrives in the afternoon and over the evening. I don't think they'll open new terrain until Sunday, Saturday snow making conditions will likely be too good and it will be worth building a solid base on the trails that haven't opened yet ahead of the long weekend.  

wfyurasko wrote:

I'd be curious the last year that all Mid-Atlantic ski areas were fully open. It'd be a good line to add to resort profiles.

Since I only get out a few times a season, I don't have a great handle on who gets all the way open. I am fairly confident that neither Elk or Montage got there last year. In fact, I don't think Elk has opened every trail since 2020 when I started going there.

I wonder if Blue Knob has gotten every run open in the 21st century.

 I think it was the season after covid, when there were back to back storms, that blue knob was 100 percent open. That is one place that should never have trouble opening, but does. What a waste of elevation.

Anyone know why whitetail abandoned the ledgewood trail? and does anyone have a photo of the map with the proposed backside expansion?

I truly think over the next decade we will see a huge consolidation of ski areas in the region. There are so many so close together that the smaller hills in areas with marginal temperatures could be shuttered (or sold off) and have their resources focused elsewhere (inside of the vail portfolio at least)

With the current forecast, temperatures except Thursday night are marginal for good snowmaking. Last night they started around 9 PM and ran all night with little to show. For most of that 24-36 hour window, the temps are in the upper 20s to mid 30s, with Friday the wind shifting from NW to SW (higher humidity). I would be shocked to see snow being made at 30-32 degrees and high humidity on Saturday. 

I am hopeful they will open, but the forecast after this weekend's potential storm does not look good. Tuesday night, the models forecast another .5 inch of rain. With the MLK weekend looming, will they try to maintain the snow piles until after Tuesday's rain and open on Wednesday or Thursday next week? 

newbie2022 wrote:

Looking at the webcams and forecasts, they should have 24-36 hours of snow making potential between now and Saturday morning. I'd guess they nominally reopen on Friday with pretty sparse coverage and the guns on full blast all day. Saturday they can make snow all day in addition to the natural snow that arrives in the afternoon and over the evening. I don't think they'll open new terrain until Sunday, Saturday snow making conditions will likely be too good and it will be worth building a solid base on the trails that haven't opened yet ahead of the long weekend.  

powday wrote:

With the current forecast, temperatures except Thursday night are marginal for good snowmaking. Last night they started around 9 PM and ran all night with little to show. For most of that 24-36 hour window, the temps are in the upper 20s to mid 30s, with Friday the wind shifting from NW to SW (higher humidity). I would be shocked to see snow being made at 30-32 degrees and high humidity on Saturday. 

Liberty said the wet bulb temps won't be conducive to any decent snowmaking once the storm arrives. From their Instagram:

We are also anticipating the arrival of 4 inches or more natural snow Saturday. While natural snow is lovely, it could also bring increased humidity, which would inhibit us from making snow. Wet bulb temperature, which is a combination of air temperature and humidity, plays a crucial role in snowmaking. For efficient snowmaking, we need a wet bulb temperature of 24 degrees or lower though we can have sporadic success at 28-degree wet bulb. If we try to make snow with high wet bulb temperatures, we will end up watering the grass on the slopes and melting everything we are able to make.

I am hopeful they will open, but the forecast after this weekend's potential storm does not look good. Tuesday night, the models forecast another .5 inch of rain. With the MLK weekend looming, will they try to maintain the snow piles until after Tuesday's rain and open on Wednesday or Thursday next week?

That's all they can hope for, really. Then they may be able to open limited trails - they'll concentrate on learning areas and terrain parks as these tend to be the most popular and biggest revenue. I don't envy them one iota.

 Looks like Liberty is opening with just the two basic beginner lifts, can't ever remember them opening with just those two lifts.   I guess it's just a chance to get the employees working and a trial run.   They've been blowing snow hard the last 24 hours plus got a bunch of natural snow so hopefully the other lifts and slopes are not far from opening.  

RodneyBD wrote:

Anyone ever seen Liberty open with just the frontside open?  Or even just midstation on the Alpine quad and the two beginner quads on looker's left?

I'm going to sound like a hater but I went to Whitetail yesterday and it felt like I was going to a Commanders Game ala Daniel Snyder.

I get the weather makes it hard (er) for VRI to create a compelling product but it was just soul-less.  The good ole days of things like Pho lunch day and farside being open may be over....

No solutions from my end just a bit of a vent....

They are running the guns just about everywhere today. Weather is favorable for around the clock snow making over the next several days. I am sure they want to open but the weather has sucked for snow making. 

Fairfield Pennsylvania Snow Weather Cam | Liberty Mountain Resort

newbie2022 wrote:

Has anyone been or heard from people at liberty this season? Is the greens only pushing more advance skiers to RT/WT? Or everyone that would usually be there just cramming into the one road down? 

While browsing Whitetail's trail report in amazement that despite days of around the clock snowmaking, the mountain is still only half open, I noticed that on the trail report that Drop In is a double black but on the trail map it is a single black. Anyone know why this may be the case? 

It may be a simple as the map was developed and implemented under the old owners, and the lift and terrain report under the new.

No fan of Vail's snowmaking plans the last couple of seasons with the local resorts, but not surprised at where they are with snowmaking.  Issue is they need to "repair" the rain and temp damage to what was already open as well as try to open new trails.  

 Drop In on the far left side of the trail toward the bottom is the steepest pitch at Whitetail. 

That said, it is bizarre that given the ideal snowmaking weather over the past few days/nights the snow cover on Exhibition is nearly non-existent. As usual, it seems they are throwing significant resources on building a huge base on Angel Drop. 

Lastrun wrote:

It may be a simple as the map was developed and implemented under the old owners, and the lift and terrain report under the new.

No fan of Vail's snowmaking plans the last couple of seasons with the local resorts, but not surprised at where they are with snowmaking.  Issue is they need to "repair" the rain and temp damage to what was already open as well as try to open new trails.  

Except for a few brief times, every time I've checked the webcam the past few days they've been making snow on Exhibition, including right now.  (If you're going by the webcam alone, they are often making snow on the upper parts of Exhibition out of view, which you won't be seeing on the webcam.  Each TechnoAlpin gun can be automatically controlled individually, so often they focus on the upper mountain, as they'll be pushing snow down as they groom it in preparation for opening.)

I'm sure Exhibition will be open by the weekend, along with nearly 100% of terrain, if not fully 100%.

I'm glad to hear they are blowing snow at the top of the Exhibition. The Techno guns on Exhibition are part of the automated system so I know they can put down a hell of a lot of snow in a short time window.

Scott wrote:

Except for a few brief times, every time I've checked the webcam the past few days they've been making snow on Exhibition, including right now.  (If you're going by the webcam alone, they are often making snow on the upper parts of Exhbition out of view, which you won't be seeing on the webcam.  Each TechnoAlpin gun can be automatically controlled individually, so often they focus on the upper mountain, as they'll be pushing snow down as they groom it in preparation for opening.)

I'm sure Exhibition will be open by the weekend, along with nearly 100% of terrain, if not fully 100%.

RodneyBD wrote:

So have to defend Vail on this - you have to wait 24-48 hours to push out a whale. Something to do with letting the pile dry out some. I’d rather they maximize blowing some massive whales if it means holding off on terrain expansion during the week. 

 Also with the cold temperatures right now adding snowmaking and the wind is dangerous. Keeping trails closed until the weekend lets them keep snowmaking at full capacity to establish a solid base while the weather is cold. This is probably the best snowmaking window liberty and whitetail have had under vails ownership. 

Holy crap Batman, are you kidding me, sink or swim, not me. 

I can't understand how anyone can find skiing at WT with those kinds of lift lines enjoyable (or skiing anywhere).   Had to be 20 minutes in line at a minimum.   If you ride the Beginner Quad it's an 8-10 minute lift ride normally, but often stops frequently, especially when crowded so you'd be lucky to get two runs down Snowpark or Sidewinder in an hour.   The high speed quad is a 4-5 minute ride so one could maybe get 5 runs if they are lucky in two hours (maybe just 4).   You wait so long in line and on the lifts for a 2 minute trip down the mountain.   At least out West you can take a while getting down the runs and have some variety.   

I don't want to rehash all the complaints about WT and Liberty after Epic has taken over, but rather ask if anyone can think of ways to make them better.    Of course limiting pass sales would help, but that won't happen.   In terms of investment newer lifts with more capacity (6 packs like Timberline, Massanutten and Wintergreen have) would be a big help and make the experience better.   Not much chance for expanding terrain at either resort especially since they are rarely fully open with the limited snow making opportunities.   Besides potential lift upgrades (which I know are pipe dreams) what other possible solutions are there?

This weekend was an anomaly (which happens from time to time in the Mid-Atlantic) -- a weekend after a (rare) snowstorm with perfect conditions and near 100% open terrain after a very warm/delayed start to the season.  People were itching to get on the slopes and it showed.  I heard that Whitetail's parking lot was completely full and they began turning away cars around lunchtime.  The access road was backed up for miles.

In that kind of situation, faster/higher capacity lifts aren't going to help.

There are only a handful of times in Whitetail's history where they reached capacity and had to turn away cars.  Today was one of them.  Whitetail will be virtually empty come Monday, and other weekends aren't likely to be this crowded.

I can’t really think of ways to avoid cases like today short of requiring reservations for everyone, which I don’t think would be popular. 

teleman wrote:

Meanwhile, I skied boot top powder at Canaan Valley today in single digit temperatures with zero lift lines.  There were places all over that mountain that were untracked as of closing at 4:30.

Laurel is usually like that but the masses discovered her today.

 Could the slopes available from that lift handle the the extra number of skiers? WT express directly services 4 ways down, at full open. Could those 4 runs handle 1.5x the people? 

mdr227 wrote:

I can't understand how anyone can find skiing at WT with those kinds of lift lines enjoyable (or skiing anywhere).   Had to be 20 minutes in line at a minimum.   If you ride the Beginner Quad it's an 8-10 minute lift ride normally, but often stops frequently, especially when crowded so you'd be lucky to get two runs down Snowpark or Sidewinder in an hour.   The high speed quad is a 4-5 minute ride so one could maybe get 5 runs if they are lucky in two hours (maybe just 4).   You wait so long in line and on the lifts for a 2 minute trip down the mountain.   At least out West you can take a while getting down the runs and have some variety.   

I don't want to rehash all the complaints about WT and Liberty after Epic has taken over, but rather ask if anyone can think of ways to make them better.    Of course limiting pass sales would help, but that won't happen.   In terms of investment newer lifts with more capacity (6 packs like Timberline, Massanutten and Wintergreen have) would be a big help and make the experience better.   Not much chance for expanding terrain at either resort especially since they are rarely fully open with the limited snow making opportunities.   Besides potential lift upgrades (which I know are pipe dreams) what other possible solutions are there?

 LOL.. yes. I think I waited 16 chairs at one point! *gasp* The only real traffic on the slopes was deer path, which is to be expected. 

Being one of the first time in years that I rode with other skiers/riders most every trip up, I did a lot of chatting. 

There were at least 3 chairs when I rode with people that drove right past WT, like me,  and made the 3+ hour trek to LM. 

Laurel Hill Crazie wrote:

 

teleman wrote:

Meanwhile, I skied boot top powder at Canaan Valley today in single digit temperatures with zero lift lines.  There were places all over that mountain that were untracked as of closing at 4:30.

Laurel is usually like that but the masses discovered her today.

It was busy at Timberline but they handled the crowds well. I used the singles line and even with frequent lift slowdowns I generally waited only 5 minutes or so.

First couple runs were 1000 vert of powder turns. After that the obvious stuff was tracked out but there was powder to be found all day.

Line is already growing at WT. 

The perfect storm, very slow start to ski season, 2 days of 5 plus inches of snow each day, pent up demand, week of cold temps allowing continuous snow making, few skiers can ski mid-week, the job thing, got to use my ski pass or loose it. (Brings up a good discussion, will start a thread) Threatening warm weather coming. Equals long lines……

Yea, Whitetail was busy Sunday. I didn't go last year and I can't remember the last time I was able to ski more than 2 trails so was kind of excited it was fully open.

There was a reasonable wait at 9 in the lift line. I was mentally prepped for crowds but by 1045 it became harder to enjoy the day. When I left at 1230 the queue was a joke and there was no order to anything. Every man for himself type situation and that stresses me out. The expert's choice quad wasn't as stressful, but it also wasn't a short cut to more skiing. Still had long lines, and you have to factor in the shorter runs and slow lift. Also the snow was more skied off.

Another thing that sticks out to me at WT is that the lift stops (the main detachable one) more than any other place I've been to. Beyond the lack of control at the back end, WT doesn't do a good job of managing the queue when you're getting close to loading (fine for me but I can see why beginners struggle). You also notice little things like not maintaining the loading zone (like sweeping away of chunks of snow that cause beginners to fall).

It did occur to me as @Scott mentioned above that this was a unique situation with a lot of pent up demand. We'll see how things go and if Sunday was an outlier or the new normal when most of the hill is open. In my head I was thinking Saturday would have been a disaster and Sunday just a normal busy weekend day.

I went to Timberline last Saturday (a holiday weekend) and it was busy but there was order and I think a 10 minute wait was the max. I'd drive the extra 3 hours roundtrip to have an experience like I did on 1/13 at TL vs the experience I had at WT on 1/21. That's before you factor in TL had better snow conditions.

Also gotta say it was just typical WT conditions with lots of skied off sections. It's what I expected and not complaining, but this wasn't a special Mid Atl ski day. Whereas people above me are saying powder conditions at TL/CV over the weekend with minimal lift lines. What is saving me from regret is that I couldn't ski Saturday and TL is tough for me to do for a Sunday day trip.