This is in line with comments we made recently in another thread.  There are a lot of good things about how passes work now.  If you live near one of the resorts, then it's pretty good,  You can ski your local hill often, but then also get in some bigger trips to many different places, and that didn't use to be the case.  However, if you don't live near a resort, it can shut you out.  It can be pretty hard to get your money's worth.  I live near Wintergreen and Massanutten, and I would like to ski there very often, but then also go to some other big places.  So, for me, prices are really inflated to do that, way worse than it used to be.  It kind of means I need two passes, or I'm driving a lot.  Losing the ability to buy a day ticket at a reasonable price really cuts down on options.

Another problem is trying to meet up with friends.  When some friends are on Epic and some friends on Ikon, you can't all meet up.  So, this new system is great in some ways for some people, but terrible for others.

This year, despite my best efforts, I only got in 9 days of skiing.  I think this means that I don't need unlimited local access, so I'm on the waitlist for the Indy pass next year.  It will be fun to check out lots of new places, but it will also suck that it basically means I won't go to any Epic or Ikon resorts next year no matter who has the best moguls.

The honest truth is that the inflated ticket prices have made things worse for me.  There are still some places out there with better ticket prices, but those prices have gone up too and have been able to go up, because of the huge prices charged by all the major resorts.

There are so many ways to avoid paying the walk up rate.

For example, Massanutten offered four packs back in early December for 225 and they were valid any day except over the Christmas New Year’s holiday.  So you’re skiing on a weekend for about $56.  Most independent resorts have specials if you’re willing to buy early or do your homework.

And Massanutten’s full season pass is 540 and that includes four buddy tickets.  That is another good deal.

in the early 1990s Massanutten‘s walk up rate was about $40 on holidays and weekends.  The walk up rate is about 100 today.  Skiing is much more affordable today because of the reduced season pass prices and the infrastructure and snowmaking is significantly better.

And there are so many alternatives to epic and ikon in most areas.   

If you get the Indy pass, you get wintergreen Massanutten Bryce blue knob Canaan Valley And wisp.  And that’s 12 days for 399.   

The only change is the resorts have decided they’re not going to take all the risk regarding revenue.  And generating revenue in the late spring allows them to make it through the summer and into next season.

Yeah, that's the position I've been settling on, avoid Epic and Ikon.  A lot of people have been settling on that, because Epic sales have been down.  I used to judge places based on the stats, acres and vertical, but now I see a lot more value in the small places.  Also, since I've skied most of the big places, I'm now interested in checking out more of the small ones.

A lot of people talk about the risk of buying ahead of time in regards to who gets the snow, but I see the biggest risk in terms of where there are policy changes related to moguls (locally).

If I lived between Whitetail and Liberty, I think the Epic pass would be a great deal.  Those two places as my daily driver, with an occasional local run out to Laurel and Seven Springs, and then lots of trips out West, it would be perfect.  So, for big chunks of our DC population, it's pretty good.  If Massanutten was on Epic, I'd consider it a good deal for me too.  Instead, I bought the Indy pass for next year.  That's a pretty amazing deal.  I ruled it out last year, because in my mind's eye I want to go to the one place that has moguls and ski there 30 times in a year.  In reality, 6 is max I can do, and next year I'm willing to ski at places even if they don't have moguls.

teleman wrote:

There are so many ways to avoid paying the walk up rate.

For example, Massanutten offered four packs back in early December for 225 and they were valid any day except over the Christmas New Year’s holiday.  So you’re skiing on a weekend for about $56.  Most independent resorts have specials if you’re willing to buy early or do your homework.

And Massanutten’s full season pass is 540 and that includes four buddy tickets.  That is another good deal.

in the early 1990s Massanutten‘s walk up rate was about $40 on holidays and weekends.  Skiing is much more affordable today because of the reduced season pass prices and the infrastructure and snowmaking is significantly better.

And there are so many alternatives to epic and ikon in most areas.   

If you get the Indy pass, you get wintergreen Massanutten Bryce blue knob Canaan Valley And wisp.  And that’s 12 days for 399.   

 I also made a conscious choice to opt out of the Epic & Ikon ecosystems ... all of our local resorts under the Indy Pass put in great efforts for snowmaking + grooming (save for Blue Knob -- can't figure out WTF is going on there with snowmaking), and subjectively just have better all-around vibes than the Epic mountains in PA. Haven't missed going to Liberty or Whitetail and being disappointed as I was many times in the 2023/24 2024/25 seasons. And Timberline is always worth shelling out $$$ for! 

Stephen wrote:

Yeah, that's the position I've been settling on, avoid Epic and Ikon.  A lot of people have been settling on that, because Epic sales have been down.  I used to judge places based on the stats, acres and vertical, but now I see a lot more value in the small places.  Also, since I've skied most of the big places, I'm now interested in checking out more of the small ones.

A lot of people talk about the risk of buying ahead of time in regards to who gets the snow, but I see the biggest risk in terms of where there are policy changes related to moguls (locally).

If I lived between Whitetail and Liberty, I think the Epic pass would be a great deal.  Those two places as my daily driver, with an occasional local run out to Laurel and Seven Springs, and then lots of trips out West, it would be perfect.  So, for big chunks of our DC population, it's pretty good.  If Massanutten was on Epic, I'd consider it a good deal for me too.  Instead, I bought the Indy pass for next year.  That's a pretty amazing deal.  I ruled it out last year, because in my mind's eye I want to go to the one place that has moguls and ski there 30 times in a year.  In reality, 6 is max I can do, and next year I'm willing to ski at places even if they don't have moguls.

teleman wrote:

There are so many ways to avoid paying the walk up rate.

For example, Massanutten offered four packs back in early December for 225 and they were valid any day except over the Christmas New Year’s holiday.  So you’re skiing on a weekend for about $56.  Most independent resorts have specials if you’re willing to buy early or do your homework.

And Massanutten’s full season pass is 540 and that includes four buddy tickets.  That is another good deal.

in the early 1990s Massanutten‘s walk up rate was about $40 on holidays and weekends.  Skiing is much more affordable today because of the reduced season pass prices and the infrastructure and snowmaking is significantly better.

And there are so many alternatives to epic and ikon in most areas.   

If you get the Indy pass, you get wintergreen Massanutten Bryce blue knob Canaan Valley And wisp.  And that’s 12 days for 399.   

That is a good season.    

wgo wrote:

For this past season I went with the Ikon Base and a Massanutten pass. For that expense I skied:

5 days at Snowbird
3 days at Killington
1 day at Sugarbush
1 day at Snowshoe
10 days at Massanutten

Per day price for the above worked out to about $72 per day. I also had individual days at Alta, Montage, and Laurel for which I bought tickets online ahead of time. Including these increased my per day cost to about $77 per day.

It's not just the multi-resort passes that are being sold earlier and earlier.  There are many independent resorts in all regions that do spring sales for season passes.  I'm on a few mailing lists for places I've skied at in recent years just get a feel for what happens.  In some cases, certain "value" passes (midweek, twilight) are capped so if they sell out in the spring then people who wait until fall are out of luck.

When I started getting Massanutten season passes 15 years ago, the prices weren't even available until the fall.  This spring people who had a 2025-26 pass were offered a 15% discount if they bought a pass for next season before April 1.  The "bonus" tickets were new this season.

Taos was far behind when it came to online support a decade ago.  Updates to the website for pricing and event schedules usually didn't happen until after Labor Day.  These days the spring sale for season passes for the upcoming season is standard.

In short, the ski industry continues to evolve.  RFID lift access is providing data that wasn't available a decade ago for smaller resorts.  Buying lift tickets online in advance based on software that can handle dynamic pricing wasn't an option for smaller resorts.  Now there are 3-4 companies that provide the software, presumably at costs that are far more affordable than a decade ago.

... or you can buy the Epic NE Value pass, which is less than full pass if you aren't going out west.   It does come down to planning, but unless you have all your ducks in a row way ahead of time, you end up skiing your local hills mostly.  That said, even locally in SW PA, it is worth it to be able to ski 3 resorts unlimited at their price.  Seasons have stayed reasonably the same price here over decades.  Seven Springs season passes were in the 400 range in the late 90s early 2000s. (Think of the price of a decently average television, where the price is similar over decades.)  Admittedly, today you do get a lot more for a similar price if you can plan it out.  It isn't the bottom line "value" that is the issue; its the management of the resorts themselves that is an issue (dedication to snowmaking, making the experience the best it can be, etc.)  That also contributes to overall value, to be sure.  

Stephen wrote:

Another problem is trying to meet up with friends.  When some friends are on Epic and some friends on Ikon, you can't all meet up.  So, this new system is great in some ways for some people, but terrible for others.

 Is that really a new problem?  If someone had a Snowtime season pass (Liberty, Whitetail, Roundtop) but friends tended to make the drive WV more often, they probably didn't ski make plans to ski together much.  Unless they were going to meet up at Blue Knob for a weekend.

There is no equivalent with Ikon to the Epic NE pass.  Ikon has Snowshoe in WV.  Nothing in PA so next closest resort would be Jiminy Peak (bonus mountain) or Stratton (owned by Alterra) in southern VT.  Both of those resorts are popular with folks from NYC who stay overnight to ski on weekends.

^  

It's a problem in the sense that on one hand you have good value passes on particular groups of resorts, and most people who invest in those stick within the ski areas that are on their pass.  On the other hand, to just meet up with people ad-hoc -- wherever -- the walk up rates are so high that it discourages that. That's my take on it.

I always took full advantage of my Ikon passes out west and at Snowshoe until we became snowbirds this year.

We spent too much time in FL and SC to justify Ikon with no "big trip" on the books. All I had was a Flex 3 at Snowshoe.  

Next season, I'll be much closer to the NC mountains from Jan - March. I'll ski Snowshoe if conditions are good in Dec.

It looks like I'm going to have to pay the man at the window to ski in 26/27 for the first time since the Snowshoe Ridiculous pass came out.

It's not a new problem for people with passes, but many of us didn't use passes before.  Before, you could just round up people to go skiing one weekend or another.  Sometimes I would ski with different friends every weekend (thinking more of when I lived out west).  It was very nice to go to whatever resort we wanted.  Now, that's cost prohibitive.  It's so expensive that either people won't want to do it, or they have their pass.  See, that's the model now.  Everyone has to have a pass to make it economically viable to ski, or they had to have bought tickets a year in advance.  The resorts are using sky high window ticket prices to force everyone to lock in.  Some of the Epic passes come with 50% off buddy tickets, so that's an option for those friends that don't buy a pass, though usually the good skiers have passes.  Where I live it's about equal distance between an Epic and an Ikon resort.  You can go either way. 

When I moved to California, all the friends I made and skied with that first winter would have had to have bought their passes before I even met them.  Probably half the people I met through work and skied with that year wouldn't have become friends with me, because they would have had different passes, and we wouldn't have skied together.  It's a different world.  It's worse.  I remember skiing a bunch at Copper, because you could get very cheap tickets, like $30.  I remember being shocked that people paid so much to park at Vail and ski at Vail when the skiing was just as good at Copper for so much less money.  Those days are gone.

marzNC wrote:

Stephen wrote:

Another problem is trying to meet up with friends.  When some friends are on Epic and some friends on Ikon, you can't all meet up.  So, this new system is great in some ways for some people, but terrible for others.

 Is that really a new problem?  If someone had a Snowtime season pass (Liberty, Whitetail, Roundtop) but friends tended to make the drive WV more often, they probably didn't ski make plans to ski together much.  Unless they were going to meet up at Blue Knob for a weekend.

There is no equivalent with Ikon to the Epic NE pass.  Ikon has Snowshoe in WV.  Nothing in PA so next closest resort would be Jiminy Peak (bonus mountain) or Stratton (owned by Alterra) in southern VT.  Both of those resorts are popular with folks from NYC who stay overnight to ski on weekends.

Blue Don 1982 wrote:

I always took full advantage of my Ikon passes out west and at Snowshoe until we became snowbirds this year.

We spent too much time in FL and SC to justify Ikon with no "big trip" on the books. All I had was a Flex 3 at Snowshoe.  

Next season, I'll be much closer to the NC mountains from Jan - March. I'll ski Snowshoe if conditions are good in Dec.

It looks like I'm going to have to pay the man at the window to ski in 26/27 for the first time since the Snowshoe Ridiculous pass came out.

 Depends on the planning.  Snowshoe has a Midweek pass on sale now for $329.  The Flex-3 pass will be available at a later date.

Anyone know what the window rate was this season?

My window for Snowshoe is most likely the 2nd and 3rd week of Dec (based on recent weather). They did not even open until Dec 4th or so this past season. Not worth any pass for the usual limited trails.  If the season starts strong, I'll just pay to play while I'm up north. Christmas week is a hard no.

The only reason SS is an option -  I have free lodging there, otherwise TL would be a no brainer. Same drive for each from my FT home.

Once we migrate south for the winter, SS (I love SS) is not worth the long drive back - I've skied it a million times. As we all know, there is no easy way to get there. 

It will be interesting ..... Ha .... just like the title of this thread.

PS - I think weekend window was in the 150 range and 100ish mid week prime season. 

marzNC wrote:

 Depends on the planning.  Snowshoe has a Midweek pass on sale now for $329.  The Flex-3 pass will be available at a later date.

Anyone know what the window rate was this season?

Ah, that explains a lot about how you post about SS these days.

The 2nd week of December is when I drive out to Colorado to meet up with retired friends to ski Wolf Creek these days.  One reason not to get Ikon or Mountain Collective is that it doesn't take many days to get good value out of a senior value pass at places like Wolf Creek and Taos.  At this point, I'm still happy to stay in town and drive 30 minutes for a ski day.

Hard to find a day ticket for less than $100 these days out west.  Wolf Creek is one of the few places.  Although the main reason my friends and I keep going back is that it's been 100% by Dec. 11 the last five years.

Blue Don 1982 wrote:

My window for Snowshoe is most likely the 2nd and 3rd week of Dec (based on recent weather). They did not even open until Dec 4th or so this past season. Not worth any pass for the usual limited trails.  If the season starts strong, I'll just pay to play while I'm up north. Christmas week is a hard no.

The only reason SS is an option -  I have free lodging there, otherwise TL would be a no brainer. Same drive for each from my FT home.

Once we migrate south for the winter, SS (I love SS) is not worth the long drive back - I've skied it a million times. As we all know, there is no easy way to get there. 

It will be interesting ..... Ha .... just like the title of this thread.

PS - I think weekend window was in the 150 range and 100ish mid week prime season. 

marzNC wrote:

 Depends on the planning.  Snowshoe has a Midweek pass on sale now for $329.  The Flex-3 pass will be available at a later date.

Anyone know what the window rate was this season?

"And once you’re in? You’re locked into that ecosystem."

Oh darn... with Ikon I'm "locked in" to skiing at 70+ locations worldwide, most of which I've never been to before, and if I went to two new ones every year it would take me decades to ski them all.

I don't think "overcrowding" is the product of the pass system. It's the product of the population increasing while the number of major ski resorts has basically remained the same since 1990 (and many smaller resorts have died).

The downside of Ikon is that I can't go to Vail, Beaver Creek, or Whistler, all of which I went to in the 80s and 90s and liked a lot. But as I said there are plenty of other places to go.

The downside is that if you buy an Ikon pass to ski locally, you can only ski at Snowshoe.  You're locked into Snowshoe.

I don't think this lawsuit is for those of us that travel all around the country to ski all winter.   Most skiers just get in a few trips a year, and they are getting reamed.  This lawsuit is for them.

Mongo wrote:

"And once you’re in? You’re locked into that ecosystem."

Oh darn... with Ikon I'm "locked in" to skiing at 70+ locations worldwide, most of which I've never been to before, and if I went to two new ones every year it would take me decades to ski them all.

I don't think "overcrowding" is the product of the pass system. It's the product of the population increasing while the number of major ski resorts has basically remained the same since 1990 (and many smaller resorts have died).

The downside of Ikon is that I can't go to Vail, Beaver Creek, or Whistler, all of which I went to in the 80s and 90s and liked a lot. But as I said there are plenty of other places to go.

Not a problem for us. We have no interest in Liberty/Roundtop/Whitetail for reasons unrelated to Epic, and we think Seven Springs is "meh". 

I haven't checked recently, but my recollection on break even for Ikon is about ten days. We manage that easily. Not sure what most skiers do, but if you do two four day trips, you're not getting reamed too badly if you get an Ikon pass.

Stephen wrote:

The downside is that if you buy an Ikon pass to ski locally, you can only ski at Snowshoe.  You're locked into Snowshoe.

I don't think this lawsuit is for those of us that travel all around the country to ski all winter.   Most skiers just get in a few trips a year, and they are getting reamed.  This lawsuit is for them.

Break even on the inflated window prices...  That's the psychological trick.  

Mongo wrote:

Not a problem for us. We have no interest in Liberty/Roundtop/Whitetail for reasons unrelated to Epic, and we think Seven Springs is "meh". 

I haven't checked recently, but my recollection on break even for Ikon is about ten days. We manage that easily. Not sure what most skiers do, but if you do two four day trips, you're not getting reamed too badly if you get an Ikon pass.

Stephen wrote:

The downside is that if you buy an Ikon pass to ski locally, you can only ski at Snowshoe.  You're locked into Snowshoe.

I don't think this lawsuit is for those of us that travel all around the country to ski all winter.   Most skiers just get in a few trips a year, and they are getting reamed.  This lawsuit is for them.

Also, if I had to ski at Snowshoe all winter long, I would quit skiing.  This is the problem.  I want to ski at Winter Park, so I would love an Ikon pass, but I can only get there a few times a year.  So, the Ikon model for me to "break even" would be to ski at Snowshoe every weekend, and then take an occasional trip to Winterpark.  No thanks.

Mongo wrote:

Not a problem for us. We have no interest in Liberty/Roundtop/Whitetail for reasons unrelated to Epic, and we think Seven Springs is "meh". 

I haven't checked recently, but my recollection on break even for Ikon is about ten days. We manage that easily. Not sure what most skiers do, but if you do two four day trips, you're not getting reamed too badly if you get an Ikon pass.

Stephen wrote:

The downside is that if you buy an Ikon pass to ski locally, you can only ski at Snowshoe.  You're locked into Snowshoe.

I don't think this lawsuit is for those of us that travel all around the country to ski all winter.   Most skiers just get in a few trips a year, and they are getting reamed.  This lawsuit is for them.

Let me tell my story to show how passes don't work out sometimes.  I've skied a bunch since 1996, and I've only had passes for maybe a few years.  Paying window prices has mostly been the right call for me.  We like to get out west a few times a year, but now at $350 a ticket it just doesn't make sense.  Like everyone else, we decided we have to have a pass.  So, we have the Epic pass this year.  I gave everything I had to use that thing this year.  I probably "broke even",  Heavenly, Beaver, Breck, Whitetail, Laurel, and Liberty, 1 day each.  We tried the absolute best to get as much as we can with the pass, and my wife was able to join me at Heavenly and Beaver.  So, we paid $800 for two days of skiing for her.  We almost "broke even".  Except, adjusting for inflation, window ticket prices should be $120-$180 out West.  We should have just gotten a pass for me, and then used Buddy tickets for her, but you think optimistically that you're going to have lots of long big trips.  That's how the pass seems so much more palatable, because you're thinking in terms of the best case scenario, not what life actually gives you.  I am sure that my story is common, and there probably are many cases where people can't use the thing at all.  So, the passes seem like such a great deal and it is for many, but unfortunately, the model means that skiing a few days at the main western resorts are now about twice as much money as it used to be, and they used to be expensive.

Furthermore, as someone who has mostly bought single day tickets, I can tell you that there always used to be deals.  I don't think they do deals like that anymore.  I rarely paid full ticket prices.  Wintergreen had a frequent skier card where it was always half price.  Massanutten has Monday night madness (I guess Mass still has deals, but they're independent).  I once bought a season pass to Winterpark and Steamboat for April for dirt cheap.  You could go into some stores and get very cheap tickets for some huge places.  I had the season pass to Snowshoe for dirt cheap one year.  There have often been some great deals bundling tickets with lodging.  So, for the amount of skiing we do, the passes are not a deal.  The new system is much more expensive with a lot less freedom.

I completely get that the passes are great for many people, and one day it will be great for me as well.  But now skiing has evolved to be much worse for me, and I'm sure much worse for your typical skier.  People posting on forums are not typical skiers which is why when you look around some forums, you see people wondering what's the problem.

That's a pretty good summation of it.  The terrain is different now, and the early buy-in passes - collective passes for certain areas - changed everything.  Walk up passes are ridiculous. Ski lesson prices are ridiculous. Food and beverage prices are ridiculous.  I see it from two perspectives:  if you have a place near or happen to live near a few resorts that are all on a certain pass, it is certainly a good value. You can get your 30-40 visits in and you've made out given the price of your pass.   If you don't and are used to just walking up to wherever you want to ski - not so much.    Not to mention that the consolidation and management at a distance has hurt many ski areas.  Vibe, customer service, etc.  

You don't have the option to pay some imaginary uninflated lower price that you think the ticket "should" cost. You are choosing between pass cost and window cost, and the pass cost is unquestionably worth it if you ski a certain calculable number of days.

Stephen wrote:

Break even on the inflated window prices...  That's the psychological trick.  

Mongo wrote:

Not a problem for us. We have no interest in Liberty/Roundtop/Whitetail for reasons unrelated to Epic, and we think Seven Springs is "meh". 

I haven't checked recently, but my recollection on break even for Ikon is about ten days. We manage that easily. Not sure what most skiers do, but if you do two four day trips, you're not getting reamed too badly if you get an Ikon pass.

Stephen wrote:

The downside is that if you buy an Ikon pass to ski locally, you can only ski at Snowshoe.  You're locked into Snowshoe.

I don't think this lawsuit is for those of us that travel all around the country to ski all winter.   Most skiers just get in a few trips a year, and they are getting reamed.  This lawsuit is for them.

Full Ikon Pass costs $1,399. Ski for 10-14 days and you're beating the price that you think window tickets "should" be (and only 4 days to beat the price that window tickets actually are).

I paid $49 a day to ski this season. That's not much more than the 1990s window ticket price right there.

The math that makes the pass worth it isn't very hard. 

Stephen wrote:

 Except, adjusting for inflation, window ticket prices should be $120-$180 out West.  

Per visit prices have gone down if u ski just 10 or 15 visits.  "Having a pass" price has stayed stable over decades.  In fact has gone down if u factor inflation. 

That math isn't hard.

That isnt the point.  The point is that visitor experience, resort attention to detail and service has failed the customer as further consolidation and distance managing continues.   Esp. for smaller areas.

If youre ok with that, good on you.  But value isnt measured solely on cost per run or per visit.  That math becomes a little more difficult. 

I used to track how many visits I did on my pass for years.  35 to 50 bux per?  You do choose to pay pass price or window price, no doubt!  That's all well and good until the only people skiing are old people.  You dont further the sport by frontloading all money in passes up front and then limit or make the window price insane.

The mega passes are a great deal if you live near one of their resorts.

I asked Google what a Vail lift ticket cost in 1996, and it said $50, which is equivalent to $104 today.  If you look at what you get compared to other services like plane tickets, that's a reasonable price.

Passes are an amazing deal compared to window prices, but that's mostly because window prices are artificially high. The fact that pass prices are so low is another data point that window ticket prices don't need to be that high. I believe, by pushing everyone to a pass, they make a lot of money, because many people end up not using it much and didn't need it in the first place. 

I guess another way to state all this is that the passes aren't the problem. The problem are the inflated window prices, but the pass model has enabled that.  Just being able to go up and buy a ticket at the window was once the best option for many, and that's gone now.

This new model is really good for some people, but it's much worse for the average skier that only skies a few times a year.  So there is a squeeze on the average consumer, and that is facilitated by monopolies. So in our system, that is a problem that is often addressed when the free markets break down. 

I believe there are some people that are really happy with the present system, because it suits their needs.  They get upset at the idea of rocking the boat, because then things might change to be worse for them.  There are usually winners and losers with any policy.  Give me a few years, and I will be very happy with the passes.

^ exactly.  Window prices _could_ go down, and pass prices could/should creep up a bit.  It is skewed too far in one direction.  Current state isn't good for the sport and not good for people who are simply dabbling in the sport for a period of time.  It's "fine" for lifelong skiers like me (and perhaps you and many others here).   

It's because large entities bought small resorts and are relying on stats and math alone to determine what should go on - with only a glimmer of an idea of what a particular resort's demographics or culture is like ...  "be data driven..." - very much in fashion now.

That may work for years or so, but that doesn't work indefinitely / not sustainable for all resorts / ski areas.

That's also why you're scanned at every lift point.  (forget visually indicating that you have a pass -- may take more human effort to do that!).  It's all about the data ;-) Lol.   Each new employee each year may have less and less of a problem with that, and I get it - times change - but you will need to take a look maybe 10-15 years down the line on that one to see how that pans out.

Cracks are already forming. Epic sales were down even before this terrible season (out west).  I got my Indy pass. I don't know when I'll be at an ikon or epic resort again.

needawax wrote:

^ exactly.  Window prices _could_ go down, and pass prices could creep up a bit.  It is skewed too far in one direction.  That isn't good for the sport and not good for people who are simply dabbling in the sport for a period of time.  It's "fine" for lifelong skiers like me (and perhaps many others here).   

It's because large entities bought small resorts and are relying on stats and math alone to determine what should go on - with only a glimmer of an idea of what a particular resort's demographics or culture is like ...

That may work for years or so, but that doesn't work indefinitely / not sustainable for all resorts / ski areas.

Those who are committed to the season buy a pass, early.

Those who are committed to the sport own their own equipment.

Saves so much time and hassle, leaving more time to ski.

Everything else is finding a roof over your head and following the snow.

IKON or Epic just depends on where you live and where you want to ski.

Both are a great deal if do some planning and get to take full advantage of them.

If these passes didn't exist, then window rates would have to come down,

Because people like myself wouldn't pay them and I'd find another winter sport.

^ most of us do buy a pass early, own our own equipment etc.  for many decades (to speak for myself) - committed skiers, as you say.  (Whether it be a season to a specific ski area like old times -- or a multi-destination pass) .... Not arguing it isn't a great value if you're going by the dollar. (by all means, go by the dollar if you like)

It's even cheaper than it used to be if you can get to your destination or have access to or own a place near supported resorts. That doesn't change the fact that consolidation and management at a distance has ultimately hurt the adoption of the sport - people who are new to snow sports.    Those who want to join in / newcomers - are faced with some serious sticker shock once they hit even a slightly decent resort and pay window prices.  

If these types of passes didn't exist, window rates would surely come down, as they should. 

Skiing has always been "expensive" and has always required investment and "upstart cost"   I'm an older dude and I get that. But it doesn't need to be exclusionary and exist solely to serve some bottom line on some chart. 

needawax wrote:

It's even cheaper than it used to be if you can get to your destination or have access to or own a place near supported resorts. That doesn't change the fact that consolidation and management at a distance has ultimately hurt the adoption of the sport - people who are new to snow sports.    Those who want to join in / newcomers - are faced with some serious sticker shock once they hit even a slightly decent resort and pay window prices.  

If these types of passes didn't exist, window rates would surely come down, as they should. 

Skiing has always been "expensive" and has always required investment and "upstart cost"   I'm an older dude and I get that. But it doesn't need to be exclusionary and exist solely to serve some bottom line on some chart. 

After paying attention to other regions besides the southeast and mid-Atlantic in recent years, there are places where smaller hills that have mostly locals are not that hard to find.  The growth of the Indy Pass list has made it easier for travelers to find those places.  1-location passes, flex passes for 2-5 days, and other deals started re-appearing a year or two ago.  The number of resorts offering deals to pass holders of other resorts during late season was noticeable in 2026.

My ski buddy from Ohio and I met a small group of senior men at Winter Park in December who are local to Perfect North.  From the way they described it, not that much has changed.  One of them bought a condo in Fraser and that's where they stay a few times a season.  For a couple, that's most of their ski days.  One worked at Perfect North for years . . . and was too busy to ski when PN was open.

I'm glad to hear that, and as I'm mostly a northeast skier, I don't often see or pay attention to what's going on across the US of A.  And I'm thinking it will slowly change to a central point on the scale and you may see cheaper small-scale options for occasional visitors.  I do try to get my 40 or so days in regardless. because ... "I bought a pass,"   What we've been doing, since we're mostly laurel highlands based, is to get out there as often as you can on the pass and then splurge if you want to go somewhere that isn't on the pass and you need to buy off the rack.  I don't have a problem with that conceptually, its people new to the sport who may rent skis / may have skis / just trying out the sport / that I'm concerned about under this scenario.

Rabid skiers don't typically care if the pass price goes up 5-25 bucks each year. We may bitch about it, but buy it and it's a done deal. It is a "sunken cost" that we expect.  Levelling out the price structure would go a long way to furthering/sustaining the sport's uptake, etc.

needawax wrote:

I'm glad to hear that, and as I'm mostly a northeast skier, I don't often see or pay attention to what's going on across the US of A.  And I'm thinking it will slowly change to a central point on the scale and you may see cheaper small-scale options for occasional visitors.  I do try to get my 40 or so days in regardless. because ... "I bought a pass,"   What we've been doing, since we're mostly laurel highlands based, is to get out there as often as you can on the pass and then splurge if you want to go somewhere that isn't on the pass and you need to buy off the rack.  I don't have a problem with that conceptually, its people new to the sport who may rent skis / may have skis / just trying out the sport / that I'm concerned about under this scenario.

Rabid skiers don't typically care if the pass price goes up 5-25 bucks each year. We may bitch about it, but buy it and it's a done deal. It is a "sunken cost" that we expect.  Levelling out the price structure would go a long way to furthering/sustaining the sport's uptake, etc.

 One way I've been getting a sense of how a local family can go skiing is to be on the email list for a season or two after I go somewhere that's not in the southeast or mid-Atlantic.  In recent years, I've paid attention to Mt. Bachelor, Wolf Creek, Brundage, Bogus Basin, Brian Head, Bridger Bowl, Brighton, Berkshire East, Jiminy Peak, Waterville Valley, Wachusett, Tenney, and others not on Epic or Ikon.  There is a lot of creative ideas being put out.  With more ski areas having gone to RFID, it's that much easier for management to know exactly when people show up if there is an experiment with an afternoon pass or some special deal.

It's very interesting that Mountain Capital Partners, which has most of their American resorts in the southwest, hasn't raised season pass prices since 2023.  MCP has free season passes for kids 12 and under, with no adult pass purchase required.  MCP just did a deal to operate a ski hill in the midwest.  They have operated Nordic Valley in Utah for a while.  The big acquisitions were in Chile.

The "mid majors" are Boyne, Powdr, and PGR.  MCP is a new but is in that category now.  The new Bear Den is getting there for folks in the northeast with Jay, Burke, Berkshire East, and Catamount.  In the midwest, there is someone who owns/operates 3-4 resorts that used to be independent.  So changes are happening at all levels of the industry that will impact Vail Resorts and Alterra in the next few years.

Have you heard about Learn To Turn by Indy?  Was available essentially all season for 2025-26.  Something like $189 for 3 days (or 3 night sessions) to cover lift ticket, rental gear, and a beginner lesson on a non-holiday date.  The list of resorts involved included places in multiple regions.  Here's the list for the East.

Waterville Valley - New Hampshire 

All good info for all of us, to be sure!  The flip side of that is that I don't want to have to become a price structure researcher across regions and particular resorts to simply get the best price and just enjoy skiing.  I get that you need to do your homework in today's market.  You and I and others here may do that, but new / prospective skiers aren't going to do that to that extent.  

The thing that should piss everyone off is that IKON and Epic

Passes go off sale just before the season starts. Getting an Indy pass

Is a joke (limited availability at a resort, waiting list to buy, sold out in 39 minutes).

I don't understand why anyone who has a "home" mountain would buy one.

It's good for exploring, I guess, but it's not for me, and not how I want to ski.

I agree, the Indy Pass doesn't work for someone that wants to ski 40 times at their home mountain, and that's why I ruled it out last year.  Though, I discovered that I can't really get in that many trips.  The ski season is 3 months, and I can only ski at most once a week.  I won't go up on a holiday, and I also want to mix in some far away trips.  That leaves about 6 days.  If I lived close to just one mountain, then the Indy pass still wouldn't work, but I live close to three mountains, and I like the idea of visiting all three.  I get tired of just one place.  2 at Wintergreen, 2 at Massanutten, 2 at Bryce.  I must get Turkey Chute at Winter Place in my video collection.  I could easily enjoy a powder day or two at Canaan, plus a bigger first time trip to Blue.  Then I've already scoped out some trips out West.  Never been to Loveland nor Mount Hood.  I see some other places on the list I would like to visit, but that might be my whole season right there.

For those that have a season pass at their local mountain, the Indy pass gives a reduced price if it's one of their resorts.  So, that's a good way to get in some far away trips if your home mountain isn't an Epic or Ikon resort.

Like I said before, I want to visit my local hill on a weekly basis, and then get in a few bigger trips far away.  Paying window prices at the big resorts have gotten out of hand, and that's how I used to do it.  Epic and Ikon won't work for me, because I want to drive 50 minutes, not 3 hours every week.  So, a local pass plus an Indy pass is one way to get it done, but just the Indy Pass is perfect for me this year.  I usually ski at Massanutten, because they have better bumps, but I have some friends with passes at Wintergreen, so this will be a good time for me to join them.  Plus it will be an excellent excuse to get to Winter Place and Blue.

Bird Dog wrote:

The thing that should piss everyone off is that IKON and Epic

Passes go off sale just before the season starts. Getting an Indy pass

Is a joke (limited availability at a resort, waiting list to buy, sold out in 39 minutes).

I don't understand why anyone who has a "home" mountain would buy one.

It's good for exploring, I guess, but it's not for me, and not how I want to ski.

Indy has six mountains plus white grass all within three hours of the DC area.   And $400 for 12 days of skiing is still a pretty good value.  I like going to different places and avoiding the crowds at Bryce and Canaan Valley.    And if you’re willing to take a trip to New England, there are so many more options.  

Bird Dog wrote:

The thing that should piss everyone off is that IKON and Epic

Passes go off sale just before the season starts. Getting an Indy pass

Is a joke (limited availability at a resort, waiting list to buy, sold out in 39 minutes).

I don't understand why anyone who has a "home" mountain would buy one.

It's good for exploring, I guess, but it's not for me, and not how I want to ski.

There are probably some people who would buy Epic / IKON passes well into December, well after the "game" is over.  But I'm pretty confident that for those corporations, the "data" doesn't "suggest" it.  You create some scarcity and it drives sales to the deadline.  Then it doesn't really matter what kind of snow falls after that.  Take 7S or HV for an example (LM not so much) -- There are more people inside driving food & bev sales than on the slopes.  

teleman wrote:

Indy has six mountains plus white grass all within three hours of the DC area.   And $400 for 12 days of skiing is still a pretty good value.  I like going to different places and avoiding the crowds at Bryce and Canaan Valley.    And if you’re willing to take a trip to New England, there are so many more options.  

Bird Dog wrote:

The thing that should piss everyone off is that IKON and Epic

Passes go off sale just before the season starts. Getting an Indy pass

Is a joke (limited availability at a resort, waiting list to buy, sold out in 39 minutes).

I don't understand why anyone who has a "home" mountain would buy one.

It's good for exploring, I guess, but it's not for me, and not how I want to ski.